Bill Oddie and Zoos. (1 Viewer)

[Debbie1905]

I took my two little grandsons to Colchester Zoo today, despite my own discomfort with the whole idea of zoos in modern society. They were absolutely entranced, asking questions about the animals, and on the way out they asked for sets of the toy zoo animals and books too, then came home and told their granddad about what the animals had been doing. Maybe today was their first day on their paths of becoming nature conservationists, and I could certainly see the value in the 'for' argument.

 

[Deseo]

"Has he flipped for real"
You seriously thought that was an appropriate comment?
I could contribute to the discussion, as I've studied captive management and reintroductions, but frankly your attitude to mental illness is disgusting so I'd rather not engage.

I'm sad that one throw away comment is enough for you to not bother joining in. You know nothing though about my attitude to mental illness, having suffered from it myself I think I am qualified to have a gentle rib at a fellow nut case. I also finished with the sentence "I had great respect for him"
Oh and My father was and my wife still is a nurse at Loversall Hospital in Doncaster which is a psychiatric hospital and I often go in and interract with the patients there and have forged some quite strong bonds with some of them in the past even helping out at times with christmas discos and parties.
But if any of this upset you, I'm sorry about that.

 

[Deseo]

Do you not think though that the animals which are on show are not being allowed to follow natural instinct? Do you not think that this causes them distress and even in some cases mental problems? We've all seen the Tigers pacing up and down because they have desires to roam and hunt and they can do neither because they are in a cage or small enclosure. I admit right now that I have not been near a zoo for many years but I can't help feeling that a large proportion of these animals are suffering in some way. So do we need to make a lot of animals suffer in order to save a few? Have you heard of the term zoochosis?
http://circuswatchwa.org/zoochosis.htm

http://www.bornfree.org.uk/campaign...dium=null&utm_campaign=zoocheck/zoochosis.htm

There was a time when the only place a person could learn about animals was at a zoo. Now we have moved on (supposedly) and we have thousands of well documented wildlife programmes and the whole of the internet to see everything we need to know about nature. So really there should be no more reason to be locking up animals primarily for the sake of making lots of money.

 

[Deseo]

Quote......
Woburn Safari Park was keeping its lions locked into small enclosures for 18 hours a day. A government zoo inspection report in 2010 said: “The animals were very crowded and there was no provision for individual feeding or sleeping areas. There was no visible environmental enrichment. Some of the lions exhibited skin wounds and multiple scars of various age, some fresh, some healed.”

 

[Deseo]

Quote.....
In late 2012, another safari park was shamed as West Midland Safari Park was exposed for providing white lion cubs to a notorious circus animal trainer, who sent them to a travelling circus in Japan. The lions remain in the circus today.

 

[Deseo]

Quote.....
A government-funded study of elephants in UK zoos found “there was a welfare concern for every elephant in the UK.” 75% of elephants were overweight and only 16% could walk normally, the remainder having various degrees of lameness. Less than 20% were totally free of foot problems

 

[Deseo]

Quote....
In 2003 the UK government gave permission for the capture of 146 penguins from a British territory in the South Atlantic (Tristan da Cunha). Those who survived the seven-day boat journey from Tristan to a wildlife dealer in South Africa were sold to zoos in Asia

 

[Deseo]

Quote...
A US study found no compelling evidence for the claim that zoos and aquariums promote attitude change, education, or interest in conservation in visitors. The study authors urged zoos to stop citing a zoo-funded study which claimed an educational benefit from visits “as this conclusion is unwarranted and potentially misleading to consumers.

It all might look rosey on the surface but just scratch it a little.....

 

[Borjam]

It's not a good idea to generalize anyway. Some zoos and public aquaria are just glorified amusement parks, while others really do a good job on education.

Wether they can inspire an attitude change or not depends on the eye of the beholder. And there are animals that can live perfectly in captivity (for example some marine fishes and invertebrates) while others should be banned from captivity (example, marine mammals).

But again, there are so different approaches.

I can recommend two excellent aquaria in Spain. Getxo (12 km north of Bilbao, close to the port where cruises arrive now) and Murcia, ran by the University of Murcia. What can you find there? Very good depictions of the ecosystems they represent.

 

[Deseo]

Quite frankly I am totally astonished to find that I am either on my own in this way of thinking or the people who agree with me are too scared to post for fear of being picked on.
This is the 21st century. Zoos are from the victorian era. Surely we now need to start to move away from locking up animals and moving more toward good real HONEST conservation?

 

[Alexjh1]

This is a bit more of a complex issue than Zoos are good or Zoos are bad, and I'd generally say I fall on the side of "I'm for good zoos".

The thing is, there are plenty of species which need/greatly benefit from the support of Zoos that are essentially utterly uncharismatic. I think its reasonable that in a well run establishment, you have a bunch of not-especially rare charismatic species to support the conservation work for the other ones. The trick will however be making sure that standards are high enough.

Equally, there are some charismatic species which unfortunatly probably need Zoos due to increasing hostility of the outside world for them, but given the choice of Rhinos and Polar Bears continuining to exist in Zoos and having them all at risk in the wild, the former is a no brainer for me.

 

[Idle Valley Birder]

The idea of Zoos doesn't sit well with me, sorry. Have taken my grandchildren to a few and I'm not impressed.
The residents of these zoo's look either very stressed or in the main bored out of their minds. Adding a few meerkats makes the kids go ah! but sadens me.

 

[Craig H]

So where do of stand on WWT reserves Deso? I'm pretty sure they make a considerable amount of money on pay as you go visitors wandering around the collections? more perhaps than they do on members fees. They have numerous captive waterfowl in smaller than normal surroundings. Yet, they do immeasurable good by protecting land, research and captive breeding. Not too dissimilar from zoo's I'd argue. Not being argumentative - just curious if your views are different.

Zoos make me uncomfortable. They are a dichotomy to me. I hate to see captive animals yet I understand (and have seen first hand) how they can inspire the next generation of conservationists. I hate the way we have a gawking unaware public who pay to go in yet many have no knowledge of (or willingness to donate to) species and habitat conservation, but their entrance fee helps to do this indirectly. I also know that our local zoo is involved with conservation at a very local level, helping and supporting local schemes and initiatives.

So, even though I personally hate the visit, I will be taking my kids there this summer because I believe it will impact on their attitudes in later life.

 

[Debbie1905]

Whilst at the zoo yesterday, my little grandsons were awestruck by how big the elephants, giraffes and rhinos were, something they can really get no idea of by watching tv or reading books, and I think they fell in love a bit more with these animals, which can only be a good thing. But I specifically avoided taking them into the area where I have seen, on previous occasions, an old orang utan who always sits by the window of his indoor area, just staring morosely out at the people. It breaks my heart. I asked my daughter to think about how people would feel if we put a person in one of the cages, fed them three times a day, and just left him to be stared at and laughed at all day for the rest of his natural life. When I think of that, that's when I hate the zoos.

 

[Deseo]

So where do of stand on WWT reserves Deso? I'm pretty sure they make a considerable amount of money on pay as you go visitors wandering around the collections? more perhaps than they do on members fees. They have numerous captive waterfowl in smaller than normal surroundings. Yet, they do immeasurable good by protecting land, research and captive breeding. Not too dissimilar from zoo's I'd argue. Not being argumentative - just curious if your views are different.

Places like Slimbridge were born in an age where the trimming of wings on birds was acceptable, and while I think that places such as this are head and shoulders above the likes of ordinary zoos I still think that it's time we moved on (as a race) and phased out the maiming of animals in order to stop them from fleeing. Yes it pulls in the punters but it's time we started to all (and this includes visitors) change our views on wildlife and conservation and find ways of doing it without having to make any of the animals suffer.

It's interesting that the two posters above (and I say this with respect) both seem to have reservations about zoos and yet still go. If more people spoke up about their reservations then slowly we would change things. It seems thought that everyone is now saying "Oh the zoos do conservation work so la la la I'm not listening to you about any of the bad stuff."
Mankind can live without seeing animals caged up, he just has to be shown how. Again, the lady who turns a blind eye to the poor Orang Utan shows that things are not as rosey as people would like to think they are. The vast majority of visitors in my opinion don't really give a moment's thought to the welfare of the animals they are seeing, and if they do they just ignore it for the sake of seeing all the other animals.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

I'm sad that one throw away comment is enough for you to not bother joining in. You know nothing though about my attitude to mental illness, having suffered from it myself I think I am qualified to have a gentle rib at a fellow nut case. .

I think you may still be suffering from it.
Your opinion on zoos is inconsequential. Your attempt to draw in any form of mental illness into the discussion, and use a high profile figure's case as an incendiary tool on the subject is disturbing and in poor taste.

I would imagine an attempt to attack the man rather than the zoo topic in my opinion.

I would put it to you that there are few out there who have done more to highlight wildlife to the masses than Mr. Oddie. I suspect you are not one of them.
As for you being "done with him".....wow....

Owen

 

[Debbie1905]

Deseo says above about my comment: "Mankind can live without seeing animals caged up, he just has to be shown how. Again, the lady who turns a blind eye to the poor Orang Utan shows that things are not as rosey as people would like to think they are. The vast majority of visitors in my opinion don't really give a moment's thought to the welfare of the animals they are seeing, and if they do they just ignore it for the sake of seeing all the other animals."

I have to agree entirely. It is very conflicting for me - how else do I try to inspire awe and wonder of the natural world to my grandchildren - I certainly can't afford to take them to Africa or Asia to see, and hear, and smell these animals and inspire their love of them? And how do I try to avoid taking them to the zoo when every other child gets to go?

I am also not entirely convinced about the conservation efforts made by most zoos, although that's a gut feeling rather than being based on any evidence. They often seem more like 'lip service'. Then again, I'm also not entirely convinced that we should still be mist-netting and ringing birds - how much information do we really need about a species in order to 'help' it? It really doesn't take years of scientific research to figure out that if we cut down the hedgerows and farm intensely, it will hugely impact our wildlife, does it?

 

[Deseo]

I think you may still be suffering from it.
Your opinion on zoos is inconsequential. Your attempt to draw in any form of mental illness into the discussion, and use a high profile figure's case as an incendiary tool on the subject is disturbing and in poor taste.

I would imagine an attempt to attack the man rather than the zoo topic in my opinion.

I would put it to you that there are few out there who have done more to highlight wildlife to the masses than Mr. Oddie. I suspect you are not one of them.
As for you being "done with him".....wow....

Owen

You're entitled to your opinion mate. But I think you fall into the ever increasing category of "I demand my right to be offended" culture that is sweeping the the UK.
As for highlighting wildlife conservation you know nothing of all the emails petitions and gatherings I go on in the persuit of conservation.
You are totally wrong in everything you just wrote.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

You're entitled to your opinion mate. But I think you fall into the ever increasing category of "I demand my right to be offended" culture that is sweeping the the UK.
As for highlighting wildlife conservation you know nothing of all the emails petitions and gatherings I go on in the persuit of conservation.
You are totally wrong in everything you just wrote.

Ooooooo a hardened, veteran, petition signatory....how could I be so wrong??
I'll just go rethink my life now...

Owen

 

[Deseo]

And how do I try to avoid taking them to the zoo when every other child gets to go?

I am also not entirely convinced about the conservation efforts made by most zoos, although that's a gut feeling rather than being based on any evidence. They often seem more like 'lip service'. Then again, I'm also not entirely convinced that we should still be mist-netting and ringing birds - how much information do we really need about a species in order to 'help' it? It really doesn't take years of scientific research to figure out that if we cut down the hedgerows and farm intensely, it will hugely impact our wildlife, does it?

At last a breath of fresh air. Thank you Debbie, you have summed it all up in a nutshell. People are scared of being left out because everyone takes their kids to the zoo. (I don't) I take my kids and grandkids out and show them real wildlife in it's natural habitat, and I like you cannot afford to go to Africa to show them wild Elephants. But just maybe, the fact that I have instilled in them a sense of wonder for the natural world, they will one day be able to go there under their own steam and see and enjoy them being free and natural. And I feel that they are much more likely to do the same with their kids and is in my opinion a much better way to educate them about the natural world than going to a zoo.
I think that people have had zoos for so long now that they feel they have some kind of time enabled right to keep doing so and they get angry if you even suggest giving them up. They all know it's not right but bury their heads in the sand about the bad points.
As for ringing of birds, that's a whole different thread. I too wonder whether people get into it more to hold rare birds than to actually benefit conservation.