Mysticete
Well-known member
Or saving up the money they would spend on Scilly for a trip to Spain, where they would probably see more new birds. Or the USA, or any other destination.
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A one generation hobby…and a concern for the future (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter bonxie birder
- Start date
Phil Andrews
It's only Rock and Roller but I like it
pbjosh
missing the neotropics
You must be a lot of fun at parties. Even if what you say were true, why is it so important to you why or how other people bird?
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Mike Crawley
Emeritus President at Burnage Rugby Club
you wouldn’t need to save up, a birding break in Spain would be cheaper than a visit to Scilly
Phil Andrews
It's only Rock and Roller but I like it
I suppose my take is whether the OP meant birdwatching as a whole or twitching as a subset?
My observations are as follows:
(1) As admin for a local birding FB group (circa 3.5k members) I am very heartened by the number of younger (and female members).
(2) I consider that cost of travel / access to transport does have an impact on the scope and scale of activities of younger birders - look at the vibrant "youth" scene around, many of whom I dont see on national twitches.
(3) Everything evolves. I stopped doing Scilly in 2009 because it had become the trotted out cliche amongst a certain % of visitors to sit in the proverbial cafe and wait for the pager to sound. I decamped to Shetland where there was more emphasis on going out and finding your own birds which required more legwork and attracted a younger crowd. Fast forward to 2024 and on Shetland I got the sense that whilst birders were out in the field a larger slice than I anticipated were circulating around South Mainland (albeit 25 x 5 miles) waiting for the pager. The ECW twitch allowed a good review of birders present - at 51 (honest) I still felt I was 10 to 15 years younger than the average age; of the 5 rarities I saw none were more than 300 metres off a road perhaps making it more accessible for an older demographic?
My observations are as follows:
(1) As admin for a local birding FB group (circa 3.5k members) I am very heartened by the number of younger (and female members).
(2) I consider that cost of travel / access to transport does have an impact on the scope and scale of activities of younger birders - look at the vibrant "youth" scene around, many of whom I dont see on national twitches.
(3) Everything evolves. I stopped doing Scilly in 2009 because it had become the trotted out cliche amongst a certain % of visitors to sit in the proverbial cafe and wait for the pager to sound. I decamped to Shetland where there was more emphasis on going out and finding your own birds which required more legwork and attracted a younger crowd. Fast forward to 2024 and on Shetland I got the sense that whilst birders were out in the field a larger slice than I anticipated were circulating around South Mainland (albeit 25 x 5 miles) waiting for the pager. The ECW twitch allowed a good review of birders present - at 51 (honest) I still felt I was 10 to 15 years younger than the average age; of the 5 rarities I saw none were more than 300 metres off a road perhaps making it more accessible for an older demographic?
Tiraya
San Diego CA
People have been surprised at me (as a "youngster"...for now) appearing at twitches, meets, and sometimes tours for as long as I can remember. Personally, I do see the age gap often, largely populated by the older members. Even my family tells me it's a hobby for when I'm retired, something they feel justified in confirming when they see among a crowd of 60+ twitchers!!
On one hand, it is logical to assume that the rise of digital technology including video games, social media, internet ease and so on has caused a greater proportion than usual of younger generations to forego any hobbies involving the outdoors. It's certainly easy to draw that conclusion. However, on the other hand I think the anticipated decline is really hard to measure, and if you use measures such as birding groups online you may see a higher amount of users compared to 10 years ago. Neither of these things really produce meaningful conclusions, though. It's very reasonable to declare that there is indeed a portion of people who could have become birders if they were born without these distractions, say 10 or 20 years ago, and in a hobby with already limited participation that is nonetheless concerning to think about. But seeing higher numbers on online communities can also just be a product of the push for digital and online spaces in modern day, which makes it impossible to contrast the then and now. To put actual number estimates on it is a troubled approach.
Personally, I think it would be sad to consider that the community is declining or being aged out. It has its culture, and culture is something that can die out when the playerbase fades. This is one of those hobbies that also benefits greatly from having experienced and veteran members, especially to circulate the teachings, passion, and blood of the community so to speak (unless you're an old fart who hates new youngsters with cameras instead of binoculars, and wants to keep the hobby locked into an exclusive personal club -- you know who you are!!).
Only the future will probably reveal what may hold. But I do certainly hope that what has happened to many other subject groups, where older researchers pass and no one takes their place, does not happen here.
PS. eBird, while not popular in England to my experience, has been a great accessible tool to garner young interest. The rise of this tool in some countries has really had a discernible impact in forming community. I can't say anything related to pagers or previous methods of sharing really comes close.
On one hand, it is logical to assume that the rise of digital technology including video games, social media, internet ease and so on has caused a greater proportion than usual of younger generations to forego any hobbies involving the outdoors. It's certainly easy to draw that conclusion. However, on the other hand I think the anticipated decline is really hard to measure, and if you use measures such as birding groups online you may see a higher amount of users compared to 10 years ago. Neither of these things really produce meaningful conclusions, though. It's very reasonable to declare that there is indeed a portion of people who could have become birders if they were born without these distractions, say 10 or 20 years ago, and in a hobby with already limited participation that is nonetheless concerning to think about. But seeing higher numbers on online communities can also just be a product of the push for digital and online spaces in modern day, which makes it impossible to contrast the then and now. To put actual number estimates on it is a troubled approach.
Personally, I think it would be sad to consider that the community is declining or being aged out. It has its culture, and culture is something that can die out when the playerbase fades. This is one of those hobbies that also benefits greatly from having experienced and veteran members, especially to circulate the teachings, passion, and blood of the community so to speak (unless you're an old fart who hates new youngsters with cameras instead of binoculars, and wants to keep the hobby locked into an exclusive personal club -- you know who you are!!).
Only the future will probably reveal what may hold. But I do certainly hope that what has happened to many other subject groups, where older researchers pass and no one takes their place, does not happen here.
PS. eBird, while not popular in England to my experience, has been a great accessible tool to garner young interest. The rise of this tool in some countries has really had a discernible impact in forming community. I can't say anything related to pagers or previous methods of sharing really comes close.
Georgebirds
Well-known member
On visits to nature reserves and other birdy places, I've got chatting to quite a lot of new-ish birders like myself, the sort with just a handful of years doing it as a hobby - usually after a lifetime of general interest in wildlife/nature but not making special effort to learn or see as many birds as possible.
They've mostly been in their late 30s or 40s. A few older, a few younger, but in these sorts of places (not twitches, just more casual day-out-somewhere-good birding!) it seems about 40 seems to be a much more common age to become a birder, than since childhood. I also spoke to one chap who started after retiring and having sudden free time to fill, which must be another fairly common point to invest more time in the hobby and switch from just a general passing interest or feeding garden birds, to making frequent trips out to seek more birds, and recording/listing sightings.
They've mostly been in their late 30s or 40s. A few older, a few younger, but in these sorts of places (not twitches, just more casual day-out-somewhere-good birding!) it seems about 40 seems to be a much more common age to become a birder, than since childhood. I also spoke to one chap who started after retiring and having sudden free time to fill, which must be another fairly common point to invest more time in the hobby and switch from just a general passing interest or feeding garden birds, to making frequent trips out to seek more birds, and recording/listing sightings.
Steve Babbs
Well-known member
I suspect that the opposite is true. When I was younger lots of twitchers hitch-hiked a lot; that has certainly stopped. When I was in my teens and early twenties, twitching was seen - among many birders my age - as the 'cool' side of the hobby, with many young birders being among the most fantatical twitchers. That has certainly changed: it is now mostly an old-man's hobby
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la_ravachol
Well-known member
Thankfully this is something for which we do have data.
Just under half of 17- to 20-year-olds had licences in the early 90s. That figure was 29% by 2014. And the number of 21- to 29-year-olds with licences also decreased, from 75% to 63%.
Given the ever-worsening economic state of young people internationally, I think it's pretty safe to assume it's continued to decline since 2014.
Young people’s travel – what’s changed and why?
Review and analysis of changing travel patterns among people aged 17-29.
Thankfully this is something for which we do have data.
Just under half of 17- to 20-year-olds had licences in the early 90s. That figure was 29% by 2014. And the number of 21- to 29-year-olds with licences also decreased, from 75% to 63%.
Given the ever-worsening economic state of young people internationally, I think it's pretty safe to assume it's continued to decline since 2014.
Young people’s travel – what’s changed and why?
Review and analysis of changing travel patterns among people aged 17-29.www.gov.uk
It’s largely an insurance cost issue I think (I’m a sixth form tutor so it’s a topic that comes up a lot). With many insurance companies also putting quite strict mileage limits that would exclude twitching regularly.
Steve Babbs
Well-known member
My admittedly unscientific data is based on when I was at university I knew no undergraduate birders with a car - and being at UEA in the 90s there were a lot of birders - and one post grad with one. Among my non-birding friends, I knew one with a car. Yes most people had licenses but not cars. talking to my kids and younger friends lot of people at university have cars. I got my first car at 27, around the time I stopped taking twitching seriously.
Many younger twitchers would get lifts off older birders with cars. I certainly spent a lot of time on the phone trying desperately to get a lift for birds. Often from a call box as no inclusive minutes in those days.
I do think it's a culture shift rather than due to any change in economics.
Many younger twitchers would get lifts off older birders with cars. I certainly spent a lot of time on the phone trying desperately to get a lift for birds. Often from a call box as no inclusive minutes in those days.
I do think it's a culture shift rather than due to any change in economics.
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JTweedie
Well-known member
In my local area rather than the old technique of relying on pagers, there is an SOC social media account that promotes a lot of local sightings and it gets a lot of traffic. They'll boost other people's sightings when they copy in the SOC account. It's interesting to see that say an hour after they tweet about something in the local area a lot of the same local birders will be tweeting photos or saying they've seen the bird. So they rely on this account to tell them what's about. However, these same birders also feed in to this account.
They're the beneficiaries of the sightings this account tweets out, but they also contribute their own finds to it too. So what comes around goes around.
Steve Babbs
Well-known member
Whatsapp groups are popular for spreading news locally. There are several in Suffolk. Two covering the whole county and ones covering parts of it.
Phil Andrews
It's only Rock and Roller but I like it
I was using the term "pagers" to mean a news dissemination media - in many cases (including Shetland) that is now WhatsApp.
TheBlackGrouse
Well-known member
Didn't do it on purpose.
In my language it's accepted to only use the word 'he' for readability. It simply didn't occur to me that it would be different in English.
No intention to harm anyone, but still, sorry.
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TheBlackGrouse
Well-known member
The OP was about ''a concern for the future''. Then, one of the first things to discuss are the reasons for birding of different groups. So yes, it does matter in this thread.
TheBlackGrouse
Well-known member
Maybe it's different in Spain but in the Netherlands there is hardly any correlation between birding and lincence/car ownership.Thankfully this is something for which we do have data.
Just under half of 17- to 20-year-olds had licences in the early 90s. That figure was 29% by 2014. And the number of 21- to 29-year-olds with licences also decreased, from 75% to 63%.
Given the ever-worsening economic state of young people internationally, I think it's pretty safe to assume it's continued to decline since 2014.
Young people’s travel – what’s changed and why?
Review and analysis of changing travel patterns among people aged 17-29.
However birding style does. The majority of twitchers uses a car. Many birders use their bicycles. Of course, the land is flat, cities are small, everywhere are separate bicycle paths and nature reserves are quite close, so cycling is a lot more attractive than in many other countries.
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
In a recent thread a respected member of Birdforum said 'check those Arctic Warblers lads'. Nobody said anything, it didn't bother me in the slightest but I thought there might be comments and there weren't. Personally I'd cut people some slack if English isn't their first language.
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Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
Lots of philosophy coming into play here now. "Who are we to judge how other people go birding?"
helhathnobirdies.blogspot.com
The two viewpoints seem to be
A. It's ok to go about it any way you want. You can be a robin stroker, misidentifying everything, feeding the ducks down the park as long as you enjoy it. Objectively true.
B. You must be competent. You must learn. You make the effort. Be a proper birder. Know why the gull you're looking at is a Caspian. Maybe find your own good birds now and again etc etc. Not a bad idea. Good to be able to contribute birds back if others are finding stuff for you etc.
There's nothing wrong with A....so long as you exist only in your A venn diagram circle. The second A decides they've seen a Caspian Gull and tries to inform those in B. Is where problems can arise. Bs are never happy if they drive over to A. To find they've wasted their time. Nothing necessarily wrong with that either. As should develop some cop on in that scenario.
You should ideally have a cycle then, where As can learn from Bs to become Bs, and pass on knowledge to As in the future (which is somewhat the crux of the OP).
I'm in the B camp. Happy to teach As. Have often tried to help younger birders out with lifts, gen, ID help etc.
I often wonder now though, if the focus has shifted entirely.
I worry that perhaps the media portrayal of birding focuses on the....shall we say "whackier" elements out there? Don't think I have seen a birding documentary or article in many years which wasn't centered around birders with Autism, Asperger's, some other mental/behavioural condition or ones who may be outrightly nuts. These are what seem to capture the imagination of the general public now.
Consequently, certainly in an Irish context, I see a SIGNIFICANT proportion of younger birders coming through (and there aren't many) who clearly have such issues.
When I started out birding, there were maybe 7-8 younger guys in our generation of birders, and none had any obvious mental health issues (though one or two in the older gen obviously did).
Are we portraying birding as the refuge of the weird?
There are, to my mind, a reasonable amount of well educated, sensible (relatively), competent (relatively) birders who just like to watch birds, find birds and have pint at the end of the day, but obviously this isn't juicy enough for the media to highlight.
I genuinely think that perhaps the wrong impression of the past time is put out there which could send such people running for the hills, changing the demographics over time.
Owen
A Field Guide To Birders - 2nd Edition
Long ago, when I had the Cork-Dudeing Blog active, I wrote a field guide to the various types of birders out there. I felt it was time to r...
helhathnobirdies.blogspot.com
The two viewpoints seem to be
A. It's ok to go about it any way you want. You can be a robin stroker, misidentifying everything, feeding the ducks down the park as long as you enjoy it. Objectively true.
B. You must be competent. You must learn. You make the effort. Be a proper birder. Know why the gull you're looking at is a Caspian. Maybe find your own good birds now and again etc etc. Not a bad idea. Good to be able to contribute birds back if others are finding stuff for you etc.
There's nothing wrong with A....so long as you exist only in your A venn diagram circle. The second A decides they've seen a Caspian Gull and tries to inform those in B. Is where problems can arise. Bs are never happy if they drive over to A. To find they've wasted their time. Nothing necessarily wrong with that either. As should develop some cop on in that scenario.
You should ideally have a cycle then, where As can learn from Bs to become Bs, and pass on knowledge to As in the future (which is somewhat the crux of the OP).
I'm in the B camp. Happy to teach As. Have often tried to help younger birders out with lifts, gen, ID help etc.
I often wonder now though, if the focus has shifted entirely.
I worry that perhaps the media portrayal of birding focuses on the....shall we say "whackier" elements out there? Don't think I have seen a birding documentary or article in many years which wasn't centered around birders with Autism, Asperger's, some other mental/behavioural condition or ones who may be outrightly nuts. These are what seem to capture the imagination of the general public now.
Consequently, certainly in an Irish context, I see a SIGNIFICANT proportion of younger birders coming through (and there aren't many) who clearly have such issues.
When I started out birding, there were maybe 7-8 younger guys in our generation of birders, and none had any obvious mental health issues (though one or two in the older gen obviously did).
Are we portraying birding as the refuge of the weird?
There are, to my mind, a reasonable amount of well educated, sensible (relatively), competent (relatively) birders who just like to watch birds, find birds and have pint at the end of the day, but obviously this isn't juicy enough for the media to highlight.
I genuinely think that perhaps the wrong impression of the past time is put out there which could send such people running for the hills, changing the demographics over time.
Owen
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jurek
Well-known member
@Steve Babbs Hitchhiking practically disappeared currently, because of overblown scare campaigns 'never trust a stranger'. I hitchhiked all across the Europe in my secondary school / student years, but in the last five years I seen hitchhikers exactly once.
Another, very subjective reason why many young people don't go birding is that nature reserves have more rules to visit, signs forbidding things and visits are generally more formal. It seems so logical to direct people... but young people hate being directed. This is the time of their lives when they learn to make own choices.
Another, very subjective reason why many young people don't go birding is that nature reserves have more rules to visit, signs forbidding things and visits are generally more formal. It seems so logical to direct people... but young people hate being directed. This is the time of their lives when they learn to make own choices.
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