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Duck hybrid, February 2025, Austria (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bitis
- Start date
Alexander Stöhr
Well-known member
Hello Flo,
interesting bird. Tfs!
I am not so sure if this is an hybrid. Pochard is a species with a large subtle variation (I hope this is understandable). The result is, that you sometimes see a strange looking Pochard, and think about a hybrid or even a vagrant.
Such dark headed birds with an extreme white blaze, recalling a Scaup like your bird are very scarce.
And I would expect an hybrid with a Tufted Duck ( that I can identify!) to show a hint of a tuft, a paler/orange eye and a weird bill-shape (and a darker breast?)
If forced, I would opt for a pure Pochard, but better wait as always.
interesting bird. Tfs!
I am not so sure if this is an hybrid. Pochard is a species with a large subtle variation (I hope this is understandable). The result is, that you sometimes see a strange looking Pochard, and think about a hybrid or even a vagrant.
Such dark headed birds with an extreme white blaze, recalling a Scaup like your bird are very scarce.
And I would expect an hybrid with a Tufted Duck ( that I can identify!) to show a hint of a tuft, a paler/orange eye and a weird bill-shape (and a darker breast?)
If forced, I would opt for a pure Pochard, but better wait as always.
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
I also haven't seen one like this. Why would an aberrant Pochard have a different bill pattern?
I found the Tufted x Pochard below on a bird hybrid website which looks fairly similar.
Attachments
I think the head shape is too Pochardy, it doesn't line up with any Pochard x Tufties I've seen documented. I think aeshna's shout that it could be a backcross is possible, with its parents being a Tuftie x Pochard and a Pochard. Does anyone know if Tuftie x Pochards are fertile?
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
I can not open the thumbnails (again!
- even with a new laptop).
But the thumbnails already look suspiciously like a hybrid Tufted duck x Common pochard ...
compare:
- even with a new laptop).But the thumbnails already look suspiciously like a hybrid Tufted duck x Common pochard ...
compare:
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
as far as I know Aythya x Aythya hybrids are fertile,
however if the fertility is exactly the same as in pure birds....
now the thumbnails opened properly 🙃😉
and I think it could well be a backcross - but not 100% sure - and it is difficult to prove, head shape is variable in suchh hybrids -but is this individual variation (e.g. due to direction of the cross) or always indicates backcrosses ---or are both F1 and backcrosses in the mix
Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
1 ter plaatse 2023-01-21 Lelystad - Het Bovenwater (FL)
waarneming.nl
Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
3 ter plaatse 2022-11-26 Biddinghuizen - Bremerbergdijk (FL)
waarneming.nl
also behaviour can affect head shape , same bird here in both links:
Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
1 adult, gezien 2022-01-06 Zwolle - Park De Weezenlanden - Doepark Nooterhof (OV)
waarneming.nl
Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
1 ter plaatse 2022-01-06 Zwolle - Park De Weezenlanden - Doepark Nooterhof (OV)
waarneming.nl
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I'm not 100% sure either, although the head shape looks purely Pochard-like to my eyes. All of the links seem to show at the very least a hint of a Tuftie bump, this duck does not.as far as I know Aythya x Aythya hybrids are fertile,
however if the fertility is exactly the same as in pure birds....
now the thumbnails opened properly 🙃😉
and I think it could well be a backcross - but not 100% sure - and it is difficult to prove, head shape is variable in suchh hybrids -but is this individual variation (e.g. due to direction of the cross) or always indicates backcrosses ---or are both F1 and backcrosses in the mix
Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
1 ter plaatse 2023-01-21 Lelystad - Het Bovenwater (FL)Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
3 ter plaatse 2022-11-26 Biddinghuizen - Bremerbergdijk (FL)
also behaviour can affect head shape , same bird here in both links:
Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
1 adult, gezien 2022-01-06 Zwolle - Park De Weezenlanden - Doepark Nooterhof (OV)Hybride Kuifeend x Tafeleend - Aythya fuligula x Aythya ferina
1 ter plaatse 2022-01-06 Zwolle - Park De Weezenlanden - Doepark Nooterhof (OV)
stevethehydra
Well-known member
This does look more Pochard-like, especially structurally, than most Tufted x Pochard hybrids, so a backcross seems plausible.
I wonder if Scaup x Pochard is another possibility? There don't seem to be many of that cross documented, but I feel like it must happen (and might be hard to distinguish from Tufted x Pochard without known parentage) - the first Scaup I saw was chasing female Pochards...
I wonder if Scaup x Pochard is another possibility? There don't seem to be many of that cross documented, but I feel like it must happen (and might be hard to distinguish from Tufted x Pochard without known parentage) - the first Scaup I saw was chasing female Pochards...
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
For this bird with this dark mantle and scapulars, and that amount of black on the bill? I think not!
generally I´d assume that is quite a rare cross , as Tufted x Greater scaup is also not that common.
I know only one documented male Common Pochard x Greater Scaup (in Gillham and Gillham 1996) that really appears to be that cross: pale grey mantle and scapulars, white flanks in breeding plumage and a slightly more pochard head shape with a bluegrey bill with a small black tip. mantle and flanks pale greyish in eclipse plumage.
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
concerning a slight "tuftie -hump", yes, most birds show it , but not all,
for me it isn´t really visible in these ones ( the second one has a more rounded head though)
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...PbSFwaZ0LExCIXEsbAXQInZXZB1wf4/s1600/2611.jpg
I won´t argue against the possibility of a backcross though- only saying we don´t know all of the variability.
Currently we have a Ferruginous duck here at one of my birding sites, that must have some pochard genes (flanks! bill tip!) but otherwise is so much Ferruginous that I am sure this can´t be a first generation hybrid.
for me it isn´t really visible in these ones ( the second one has a more rounded head though)
https://blogger.googleusercontent.c...PbSFwaZ0LExCIXEsbAXQInZXZB1wf4/s1600/2611.jpg
I won´t argue against the possibility of a backcross though- only saying we don´t know all of the variability.
Currently we have a Ferruginous duck here at one of my birding sites, that must have some pochard genes (flanks! bill tip!) but otherwise is so much Ferruginous that I am sure this can´t be a first generation hybrid.
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As Alexander says in #2, there is quite a lot of variation in Pochards which are not males in breeding plumage. I can't comment, because I don't know, on whether one reason for this might be inter-breeding one or more generations back - but if this were very common, then wouldn't one expect more aberrant male plumage birds?
I looked through some old photos for birds with a large white face/bill patch and attach photos of one such bird. And then for comparison, equivalent crops of Bitis' bird.
As you can see, some birds have more white-ish behind the bill. However, as I have marked with arrows, there is a thin reddish line from the point at the bottom rear of the bill to the main head colouration (A), and also a reddish patch at the top of the bill before the full rich head colouring is apparent (B).
Both of these features are visible in Bitis' original post, as I indicate in the photos.
It's true that Bitis' bird is exceptionally clearly marked but nonetheless, I suggest, it has a standard face pattern for its type of Pochard.
As an aside, no-one has suggested the possibility that there might be some reason other than hybridisation for this strong marking - e.g. some kind of de-feathering as a result, for example, of mite infestation or similar (the bird reminded me a bit of the face of crows in my area with such a problem).
I looked through some old photos for birds with a large white face/bill patch and attach photos of one such bird. And then for comparison, equivalent crops of Bitis' bird.
As you can see, some birds have more white-ish behind the bill. However, as I have marked with arrows, there is a thin reddish line from the point at the bottom rear of the bill to the main head colouration (A), and also a reddish patch at the top of the bill before the full rich head colouring is apparent (B).
Both of these features are visible in Bitis' original post, as I indicate in the photos.
It's true that Bitis' bird is exceptionally clearly marked but nonetheless, I suggest, it has a standard face pattern for its type of Pochard.
As an aside, no-one has suggested the possibility that there might be some reason other than hybridisation for this strong marking - e.g. some kind of de-feathering as a result, for example, of mite infestation or similar (the bird reminded me a bit of the face of crows in my area with such a problem).
OrnithologyDevotee
Well-known member
Very interesting discussion! A great reminder to go out to some local ponds later this year. Also reminds me to start memorizing the birding vocabulary dictionary on this forum. It will make discussing birds a lot easier if I understand all the vocabulary and know proper terms.
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
Hi MacNara, I think all female Aythya ducks are rather variable in their appearance, depending on one hand on age and on the other hand on time of the year (for example browner with more uniform head in summer for pochard) .
You will have seen also a huge variation in Tufted duck , Greater scaup, Redhead and Ringnecked duck females. In my opinion that isn´t an unusual thing for Aythya ducks in general. A small part of this may be indeed a result of genes from one species being brought into the gene pool by hybridisation (especially as ther eseems to be fertility in Aythya x Aythya hybrids) - but we do not know the exact amount.
However the bird posted by Bitis in my eyes clearly is some kind of hybrid with Pochard and Tufted duck genes to the following points: head is uniformely dark brown except for the pale area at the pase of the bill, and the border between pale and dark is sharp.
Also the mantle /scapulars are clearly darker than the flanks if you look at the series of photos. The third point is that the bird has a bill with a large pale area after the dark tip, getting darker towards the base of the bill. but under these light conditions in nearly all common pochards the bill would look all black with a pale area behind the tip
Certainly Pochard especially in autum to spring show pale in the face, but the face is getting gradually lighter towards the base of the bill, while in the hybrids this is a sharper , clearer border in most cases.
I personally think this is due to a difference in how the lighhter feathering arond the base of the bill is built up in the hybrids. In general there are whole white feathers (or as here, pale brown feathers-maybe due to staining?) around the base of the bill, often in a dense sharply demarcated patch, but sometimes also only dsome mixed in among colored feathers. This seems to be a bit similar to that what we get in the Canada goose x Greylag goose crosses, where you have also white feathering around the base of the bill- but a huge variation of it within individual birds (and there it is all first generation crosses , as there is no really proven fertility of the hybrids). This is the same in pochard x Tufted duck crosses, some only have a few single white featehrs there , others a large white area - but it also seems to be more pronounced in the winter birds. The white area around the bill in the scaups also seems to be similar to what is expressed in most hybrids tufted /pochard- a patch of white feathers.
Below this you can have also a pochard-like head pattern in some hybrids (but in general darker than in pochard), which can overlap ewith the white area.
(Something also seems to happen with the greyness of upper parts and flank. hybrids as well as pure birds tend to be browner in summer than in autumn/winter/ spring. In Aythyas the greyish coloration seems to be achieved by tiny pale spotting on the feathers which is more dense towards the featehr tip... I think abrasion may be involved here if birds get browner in summer... but in most hybrid sthis pattern is less dense on the mantle/scapulars than in teh flanks, whereas in most pochards the density of the pale stpots is ratehr similar on flanks and mantle/scapulars )
Some further Tufted x Pochard examples, together to the ones that have already been posted :
ML140153191 - Common Pochard x Tufted Duck (hybrid) - Macaulay Library
Macaulay Library ML140153191; © Dominic Mitchell; London, England, United Kingdom
ML613636922 - Common Pochard x Tufted Duck (hybrid) - Macaulay Library
Macaulay Library ML613636922; © Alan Wilkinson; London, England, United Kingdom
ML627733491 - Common Pochard x Tufted Duck (hybrid) - Macaulay Library
Macaulay Library ML627733491; © Magnus Andersson; London, England, United Kingdom
ML619779117 - Common Pochard x Tufted Duck (hybrid) - Macaulay Library
Macaulay Library ML619779117; © David Darrell-Lambert; London, England, United Kingdom
ML557963551 - Common Pochard x Tufted Duck (hybrid) - Macaulay Library
Macaulay Library ML557963551; © Gabriel Jamie; London, England, United Kingdom
I am not sure if I explained that properly - but I hope you will understand what I am trying to say. If not , just ask
Also just take a look at the huge variability of males in that common cross
I think it would be logical to assume variation is similarly huge in females , though more difficult to detect...
For male Aythya hybrids , but not tackling the full variation , the attached may be interesting, even though it is in German and already several years old ...
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
I think it's clear we aren't going to get a definitive answer but you've highlighted one similar feature of these two birds when there appear to be more differences. Joern has detailed these better than I could. The second bird looks like a pure Pochard and the original bird doesn't.
Hi Joern,
Fortunately for me (and you all) I don't have any particular opinion to promote, so my last post was just an attempt to be helpful.
As regards the dark head, I attach a bird that was in my local spot a few weeks ago. I thought it might be a hybrid or something, but my friends said, 'no, it's just the light or natural variation...'
I think you are saying that Bitis' bird is not pure Common Pochard, but that what the other elements and in which order they were introduced is not clear?
Fortunately for me (and you all) I don't have any particular opinion to promote, so my last post was just an attempt to be helpful.
As regards the dark head, I attach a bird that was in my local spot a few weeks ago. I thought it might be a hybrid or something, but my friends said, 'no, it's just the light or natural variation...'
I think you are saying that Bitis' bird is not pure Common Pochard, but that what the other elements and in which order they were introduced is not clear?
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
Hi MacNara thanks!
No, not exactly so. What I mean is the following:
I think Bitis bird is part Tufted Duck, but as the body shape is quite a lot like pochard (and we know there is fertility in Aythya hybrids), I can not exclude it is actually something more complex like Common Pochard x (Tufted Duck x Common Pochard).
The bird you attached is well within the variation of Common Pochard for me.
On that one you see well another feature of Common Pochard females that is missing in most Pochard x Tufted hybrids , for example also in Bitis bird... That is the pale eyering....
philipsoccasional
New member
I want to express my gratitude to everyone for sharing their expertise and for the stimulating conversation! Bird hybrids are interesting!
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