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What do you think of the 7X bino? (1 Viewer)

The Leitz 7 x 35 Trinovids were quite popular, great looking and ergonomically were gems but they were pre phase coated binoculars. Your Zens have much more modern optics which is why you can see the difference in their performance. If you compare them closely you will probably find that they are sharper too.

Bob
 
Just following this thread, I am new to birding and to this forum but not to Leica optics.

From my experience so far, going out with 7x and 10 power, I find that both work well for me. Yesterday I tracked a couple of osprey; one being accosted by an eagle. With 10x40s in hand, I had no problem at all following the action and enjoying the show for a fairly extended view of these birds that were quite a ways off across a lake.

I have also found at that distance the 7 power work really well for me. If I had to go with one set, it would probably be the 7s. My enjoyment of the large birds yesterday would hardly have been compromised by the lesser power. I know that carrying both 7s and 10s along can be more of a distraction from birding! Note to self- carry one set and be good with it.

I just picked up the Zen 7x36ED2s and I am thrilled with them. Colors run cooler than with the Leicas for sure, I enjoy the higher contrast and they are a are tad brighter than my 7x35B. Nonetheless the older Leicas do just fine even in very low light. I have never handled a binocular that feels as good as the 7x35B Trinovid. If I could have just one set it would be those although the ZR ED2 are really nice.

Welcome to this forum!

The old Trinovids sure looked good. I never owned one, but I still remember I encountered a pair of 7x35's in a shop in Clerveaux, Luxembourg, october 1983. All-green rubber armouring, beautiful to look at, superb handling, relaxing views. Couldn't afford a pair then, otherwise I would have bought them on the spot. My bins at the time were a pair of lightweight Optolyth Alpin 7x42 porro's, already exceeding my budget when I bought them. The Trinovids felt way better, more solid without being heavy. The image was better, too.
I suppose there's no point in whining why Leica won't bring the Trinovids out onto the market with Ultravid HD coatings, or an Ultravid HD 7x35, even 7x32, I'd prefer them over an 8x32. I like 7x more than 8x.

Best regards,

Ronald
 
The Leitz 7 x 35 Trinovids were quite popular, great looking and ergonomically were gems but they were pre phase coated binoculars. Your Zens have much more modern optics which is why you can see the difference in their performance. If you compare them closely you will probably find that they are sharper too.

Bob

That's why I reluctantly sold my pre phase-coated Zeiss 10x40BT*'s; lack of sharpness. The difference when compared to cheaper, modern roofs was obvious. Even my Pentax Papilio's are much sharper.

Best regards,

Ronald
 
I might add that I still have my old Leitz 7 x 42 Trinovid BA and I take it out occasionally to use. I also have a newer 7 x 42 Leica 7 x 42 Trinovid BN. The latter binocular is clearly brighter and sharper albeit bulkier. These older Leitz Trinovids used an unusual roof prism design called Uppendahl and it contributed to their elegant and sleek look. The models that replaced it, the Leica 7 x 42 Trinovid BA, later BN and currently Ultravid use Schmidt/Pechan roof prisms like most other binoculars now use.

Swift makes a 7 x 36 which has lines that remind some people of the old Leitz 7 x 35. Here is a look at it.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/swift/swift-eaglet-7x36-roof-prism-binocular

Bob
 
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Thanks for writing

Bob and Ron, I appreciate the responses.

Far be it for me to argue the merits of the newer glass vs. the Trinovid but in practical use, sharpness or contrast (probably more apparent sharpness from higher contrast). There is on the other hand no question that I am getting as much detail even in conditions darker than I would normally need, with the older Trinovid.

I chimed in here because I am using enjoying the 7x35s and feel that they are underrated from a practical standpoint. For someone reading forum conversation who doesn't know these binoculars to read that they are dim or low resolution is unfair and misleading (IMHO).

Also given that all binoculars are a compromise, the older 7x35B are very friendly in terms of size, handling and function (as is noted). Having the luxury of both these and the newer ED2s, I'm finding it fun switch off when I go out. They compliment one another.

David
 
There will be people who disagree with me, but I still think that my old Leitz 7 x 42 Trinovid is a perfectly acceptable birding binocular. I used it happily for many years; even for hawk watching at migration sites. For instance, it has nice sharp edges in it's view which is something that many new binoculars with more modern optics still have trouble getting right and it handles glare very well. It is also much easier to carry around than my more modern Leica 7 x 42 Trinovid BN which is rightly noted for it's ruggedness.

Bob
 
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The 7x42

There will be people who disagree with me, but I still think that my old Leitz 7 x 42 Trinovid is a perfectly acceptable birding binocular. I used it happily for many years; even for hawk watching at migration sites. For instance, it has nice sharp edges in it's view which is something that many new binoculars with more modern optics still have trouble getting right and it handles glare very well. It is also much easier to carry around than my more modern Leica 7 x 42 Trinovid BN which is rightly noted for it's ruggedness.

Bob

Hi Bob,

That is how I feel about the 7x35s. They are easy to carry and use and when you are out in the field and not comparing glass A to B, the difference fades; at least for me it does. These are all very good binoculars.

I had a chance to use some 8x42 FLs and while I thought they were good, I didn't find myself transported by them. I suppose if someone gave me a pair I would be happy to take them out! :)

As for your 7x42 BA, are they mid 80s because my 10x40 BA are from about 84 and they are also pretty sharp out to the edge?

David
 
I think they are circa 1989/1990. I believe that is when they came out with the Green armored version. But I could be wrong on that. I got them early in the 90's I think and used them almost exclusively until about 2001 or 2002 or so when I got a Nikon 8 x 30 EII. Which I still have.

Bob
 
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To the original question I love 7x. It is a funny thing, I owned probably the best ever 6x made, the Fujinon FMTR-SX, and although the quality was thrilling, the image was just too small. 7x is satisfying.

But, you gotta have a high power too. Don't be shy, try 12x.
Ron
 
As I work for Leica I have my choice of binoculars anytime I go out in the field and yet I only ever choose the 7x42 HDs. Comparing the 7x42 HD to the 8x42 HD the differences are quite small and if Leica didn't make a 7x42 I'm sure I'd be perfectly happy with an 8x. However, the advantage 8x binoculars provide over 7x, the added magnification, is an advantage I, personally, don't want or need. In contrast, the benefits provided by a 7x, slightly greater FOV and depth of field, are advantages that I constantly use.

However, I think this thread illustrates that not everyone uses their binoculars the same way or has the same taste in optics. It also illustrates that different people approach the activity of birdwatching in different ways. For these reasons there is no perfect binocular. Even though I'm totally sold on 7x binoculars, there are situations, usually once or twice a month, where I momentarily wish I had 10x binoculars. I know from personal experience though that I'm not happy using 10x, as a few years back the 7x42s (non-Leica) I was using at the time crapped out on me and I ended up switching between an 8.5 and a 10 (both non-Leica) for 6 months before I got 7x42 HDs. I spent the entire winter swearing at whichever binocular I was using at the time because I was missing birds I would not have missed using a 7x. (Mostly passerines that I got the bins on but was still messing with the focus wheel when they took off.)

I think the advantage a larger field of view provides is not always explained clearly and therefore isn't always valued as highly as it might be. The advantage to a larger FOV is not that is makes it easier to follow a single bird. Even birds like swallows and swifts should be easy to follow with a 10x or even a 12x binocular. The difference is this:

In closed forest or hedgerow, brushy field situations: You see a bird and you raise your binoculars but as you do so the bird disappears into the vegetation leaving you with a tantalizing glimpse of something that looked really interesting. You can either lower your binoculars and try to spot the bird again with your eyes, raise them again and risk having the bird disappear again while you are doing so or you can make an educated guess on where bird is most likely to reappear based on where you last saw it and train your optics on that point. Depending on the situation, I tend to favor the latter strategy. In these situations there is no guarantee that you have guessed correctly and quite often I am able to get on the bird by detecting a tiny bit of movement at the very edge of my FOV. The more FOV you have the more likely you are to gamble and keep your optics up and the more likely that gamble will be successful.
Open situations looking at distant objects or scanning: In open situations great FOV provides no benefits when looking at a single object, but pays huge rewards when looking at a distant object and you spot something else at the edge of your FOV. I have spotted countless interesting birds, animals, ect at the edge of my FOV while looking at other objects. The greater your FOV the more likely you are to stumble on something great while looking at something else entirely. Just yesterday I was looking at a flying Black-bellied Whistling-Duck and two other Whistling-Ducks skimmed through the upper edge of my FOV. I raised my bins a little and found that they were Fulvous Whistling-Ducks, a species not seen in my county in many years. There are other scenarios were greater FOV pays dividends, but those are two common ones.

I actually came to the conclusion that I was seeing more birds using 7x while hawkwatching because I was regularly picking up birds at the fringes of my FOV using 7x.

I should point out that I carry a scope all the time. If I wasn't also using a scope I might consider 8x binoculars. I should also confess that I definately fall into the holistic school of bird ID. However, I also look at details, such as molt limits, all the time and find that the 7x bins work well for this because of the stability of the image.

I agree with everyone that is pining for a high-end 7x35. No one makes them for economic reasons. Buyers buy more full-sized binoculars than 32mm and more 8x and 10x than 7x. A 7x35 retailing for ~$1750 would have a small, but enthusiastic, audience. High-end 8x32 models are slowly gaining more traction with birders and may eventually lead to the production of a 7x32/35.

To each his (or her) own!

Cheers,

Cameron Cox
Leica Sport Optics
 
As I work for Leica I have my choice of binoculars anytime I go out in the field and yet I only ever choose the 7x42 HDs. Comparing the 7x42 HD to the 8x42 HD the differences are quite small and if Leica didn't make a 7x42 I'm sure I'd be perfectly happy with an 8x. However, the advantage 8x binoculars provide over 7x, the added magnification, is an advantage I, personally, don't want or need. In contrast, the benefits provided by a 7x, slightly greater FOV and depth of field, are advantages that I constantly use.

However, I think this thread illustrates that not everyone uses their binoculars the same way or has the same taste in optics. It also illustrates that different people approach the activity of birdwatching in different ways. For these reasons there is no perfect binocular. Even though I'm totally sold on 7x binoculars, there are situations, usually once or twice a month, where I momentarily wish I had 10x binoculars. I know from personal experience though that I'm not happy using 10x, as a few years back the 7x42s (non-Leica) I was using at the time crapped out on me and I ended up switching between an 8.5 and a 10 (both non-Leica) for 6 months before I got 7x42 HDs. I spent the entire winter swearing at whichever binocular I was using at the time because I was missing birds I would not have missed using a 7x. (Mostly passerines that I got the bins on but was still messing with the focus wheel when they took off.)

I think the advantage a larger field of view provides is not always explained clearly and therefore isn't always valued as highly as it might be. The advantage to a larger FOV is not that is makes it easier to follow a single bird. Even birds like swallows and swifts should be easy to follow with a 10x or even a 12x binocular. The difference is this:

In closed forest or hedgerow, brushy field situations: You see a bird and you raise your binoculars but as you do so the bird disappears into the vegetation leaving you with a tantalizing glimpse of something that looked really interesting. You can either lower your binoculars and try to spot the bird again with your eyes, raise them again and risk having the bird disappear again while you are doing so or you can make an educated guess on where bird is most likely to reappear based on where you last saw it and train your optics on that point. Depending on the situation, I tend to favor the latter strategy. In these situations there is no guarantee that you have guessed correctly and quite often I am able to get on the bird by detecting a tiny bit of movement at the very edge of my FOV. The more FOV you have the more likely you are to gamble and keep your optics up and the more likely that gamble will be successful.
Open situations looking at distant objects or scanning: In open situations great FOV provides no benefits when looking at a single object, but pays huge rewards when looking at a distant object and you spot something else at the edge of your FOV. I have spotted countless interesting birds, animals, ect at the edge of my FOV while looking at other objects. The greater your FOV the more likely you are to stumble on something great while looking at something else entirely. Just yesterday I was looking at a flying Black-bellied Whistling-Duck and two other Whistling-Ducks skimmed through the upper edge of my FOV. I raised my bins a little and found that they were Fulvous Whistling-Ducks, a species not seen in my county in many years. There are other scenarios were greater FOV pays dividends, but those are two common ones.

I actually came to the conclusion that I was seeing more birds using 7x while hawkwatching because I was regularly picking up birds at the fringes of my FOV using 7x.

I should point out that I carry a scope all the time. If I wasn't also using a scope I might consider 8x binoculars. I should also confess that I definately fall into the holistic school of bird ID. However, I also look at details, such as molt limits, all the time and find that the 7x bins work well for this because of the stability of the image.

I agree with everyone that is pining for a high-end 7x35. No one makes them for economic reasons. Buyers buy more full-sized binoculars than 32mm and more 8x and 10x than 7x. A 7x35 retailing for ~$1750 would have a small, but enthusiastic, audience. High-end 8x32 models are slowly gaining more traction with birders and may eventually lead to the production of a 7x32/35.

To each his (or her) own!

Cheers,

Cameron Cox
Leica Sport Optics

Cameron,

I am very new to this business and so I appreciate the perspective you bring to the thread. In particular your fourth paragraph raises something that I do know a bit about.

Leica was for many years arguably known best for the M3 film camera which coupled beautifully with the 50mm lens. Two aspects of this camera lens combination are worth noting here, if nothing else as parable.
1. The viewfinder on the Leica was designed with it's framelines so as to allow the viewer to view the "action" (your forest/hedgerow busy visual environment) in and beyond the frame. The notion that the photographer looks through the camera not into it as an SLR facilitated a very different way of working in capturing images....and action.
2. The M3 had a life size finder for use with the 50mm or "normal" lens to which it is most often referred. This design spares the viewer visual conflict looking from the finder (with a reduced or compressed image) to real life when she pulls the camera away for reason similar to what you describe.

And as I brought up the 7x35, I can't argue that a new binocular like that would have a limited audience. There are many good examples out there probably sitting that can be had for between say $4-700.00 (not including the collectibles :)

Yesterday, I was using my 7s around the yard and discovered that following birds into and then looking at a wall of trees, I found the flatter field of the older Trinovid with less edge distortion made viewing more comfortable for me than the ZR ED2. So really for me there is an optical aspect that favors the older design at least between these two pair of binoculars.

David
 
I agree with everyone that is pining for a high-end 7x35. No one makes them for economic reasons. Buyers buy more full-sized binoculars than 32mm and more 8x and 10x than 7x. A 7x35 retailing for ~$1750 would have a small, but enthusiastic, audience. High-end 8x32 models are slowly gaining more traction with birders and may eventually lead to the production of a 7x32/35.

To each his (or her) own!

Cheers,

Cameron Cox
Leica Sport Optics

Cameron,

I've always wanted a 9X45--sort of a scaled down 10X50. For years, I used Leica 10X42 BAs, but downsized to Leica 8X32 BAs. Sometimes I long for a bit more magnification than the 8X provide and for an exit pupil of at least 5mm. The 9X45 would fit the bill perfectly, I think, but no one makes it. 10X50 is just too big, I think, to be practical for most birding. I assume 9X45 is probably a niche market too (though Swarovski has done quite well with their 8.5X42, which is close), but maybe it's something Leica could consider researching at least?

I'd be interested to hear what others think about that 9X45 size. I guess I'd rather have the combo of 7X35 and 9X45, then the existing combos of 8X32 and 10X42.
 
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Well, well. 500 bucks for a 50 year old binocular with a chip in one of the prisms? That probably needs cleaning (like almost all of the Zeiss West porros dating back to the 1950s and 1960s) and may well need colliminating, because a chip in one of the prisms indicates this pair suffered a really severe knock? With coatings that - while pretty good - aren't anywhere close to modern multicoatings? Without the original case that is a piece of art?

I like the Zeiss West 8x50B quite a lot, but I sure wouldn't buy one for everyday use. And I certainly wouldn't buy that one.

Hermann
 
Well, well. 500 bucks for a 50 year old binocular with a chip in one of the prisms? That probably needs cleaning (like almost all of the Zeiss West porros dating back to the 1950s and 1960s) and may well need colliminating, because a chip in one of the prisms indicates this pair suffered a really severe knock? With coatings that - while pretty good - aren't anywhere close to modern multicoatings? Without the original case that is a piece of art?

I like the Zeiss West 8x50B quite a lot, but I sure wouldn't buy one for everyday use. And I certainly wouldn't buy that one.

Hermann

I would rather have a CZJ 8x50 Octarem (I did have one) or the rubber armored Docter 8x50 Nobilem than the West German shorter version listed on eBay, but DDR bins are considered "declasse" by some collectors. "Made in West Germany" carries the cachet that "Made in Germany" does today.

It's a shame Docter dropped the 8x50 from their line up and now they are dropping the 8x56.

Celestron made a 9.5x44 ED bin like three decades ago, way ahead of its time. I had one, but unfortunately, it was an out of collimation beat up sample with a loose diopter so I sent it back. But they were a nice compromise in weight, size, and exit pupil (4.6mm is enough for me).

Company 7 had a display 9.5xED sitting in their shop for 10 years unused. I talked to the owner of the store and he wanted $575 firm. I paid $300 for mine, and that was too much, considering the poor condition, but the 9.5xED sold for about $400 new. So I thought that was a high price and passed on it. Looking at what alpha roofs are charging today, $575 was a very reasonable price.

I'm interested in trying the new 8.5x44 ED 820 Audubon. With the"new" B & L Discoverer type body and bridge, it might be what I'm looking for. I liked the optics in the old 820, but the ultrawide, hard eyecups were "not made for human eyes," the bridge flexed when I applied pressure with my face, and the fit and finish were of mediocre quality, paint chipped off the bridge the second day I had it. I also didn't like the ergonomics.

The new version's eyecups and body, which are a proven design on several bins, should work much better for me, but have the new owners of Swift Sports Optics dealt with the QC issues?

I'm waiting for a review on this new 820 ED version to see if it's "sponge worthy".

Brock
 

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Me? I'm kinda with RonH here.....I like to spot birdies, but not fanatically. I do belong to a club that has a few really SERIOUS folks who are really good, especially on hearing calls & saying, like, ".....white-eyed vireo" (or whatever)....to which I say, "Where? But they are the least interested in optics of any of them. Now, I think the secret to which bino to have is to have 1 in each power.....but don't advertise it, lest you be regarded as an "optics nerd/geek/cowboy", which, when among 10/10ths birders, will get you derisive looks......just select the proper instrument(s) for conditions ahead of time, them peer intently at the trees, shrubs, lakeshore, powerlines, et al, and nod knowingly when someone calls out "Blackthroated blue warbler" and swing whatever you have in that direction.....

7x is good, so is 8x.....and 10, sometimes even 6. Depends more on the quality of the unit than it's stated specs.

(Do I hear an Amen?)

As one optics junkie to another looking for his next "fix," I will give you a qualified "Amen". It depends on what "qualities" you are looking for in a quality bin. I don't like fuzzy edges. Ample sweet spot with gradual fall off at the edges will work, however, I find bins with a blurry donut hole at the edges distracting regardless of price point/quality and sharpness at the center.

The other thing about "specs" is that I like a minimum 60* AFOV regardless of magnification to avoid that claustrophobic feeling. 56* will do if all the other ducks are lined up.

That requirement is going to be hard to achieve at 6x. It would need to have a FOV of 9.3* to yield a 56* AFOV. Quite common in 7x35s, but I've never seen that much TFOV in a 6x30. If one existed, it would probably have a donut hole for edges like the Miyauchi 5x32 Binon with its 66* AFOV.

When it comes to binoculars, you can't have it all like Bogie and Bacall. Or as Roseannadanna used to say, "It just goes to show you, it's always something, if it's not one thing, it's another."

Having said that, had the 6x30 FMTR-SX been center focus, I could probably have lived with its 51* AFOV, which surprisingly didn't feel too confining perhaps because of its wide 8.5* TFOV. But in an 8x42, a 51* AFOV looks like a porthole to me.

So while I would weight image quality higher than AFOV, I wouldn't discount the specs altogether. Despite being a porromaniac, I would take a 7x42 EDG with its 56* AFOV before I would a Swaro 7x42 Habicht with its 45.5* AFOV, which would surely elicit a panic attack in those who suffer from claustrophobia.

Brock
 
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