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Six contradictory claims in various sources!? (1 Viewer)

Thanks Laurent, that´ll do!

Thereby let´s continue with:

lamotti
● as in the invalid "Scolopax Lamotti" BAILLON 1833 [here, in Memoires de la Société (Royale) d'Emulation d'Abbeville] (Syn. Gallinago gallinago LINNAEUS 1758)
Le nom que je propose de donner à cette nouvelle espèce, est celui de M. de Lamotte , ornithologiste trèsinstruit qui habite l'arrondissement, et qui, par les notes qu'il a donne'es à M. Vieillot , lui a ete' d'un grand secours pour la partie ornithologique du nouveau dictionnaire d'histoire naturelle et de l'encyclopédie.
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Today's HBW Alive Key has the following:
lamotti
Jules Benjamin de la Motte (fl. 1820) French naturalist (syn. Gallinago gallinago).
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From Justin's Paper (for the year 1816, p.94, link in Post #17): " … Jean “Jules” Duchesne de LaMotte (1786-1860) from Abbeville donated an unknown number of birds in December 1816. LaMotte also exchanged birds with the MNHN (dates unknown), and some of these are still present in the Musée Boucher de Perthes in Abbeville."

Most likely the same guy … or?
 
In the same Journal in which the OD of the lamotti Snipe was published (on p.71) we also find a closer connection to a certain "Duchênes de la Motte (Jules)" (on pp.589, 590, here and here).

If relevant … I do not know. But I think so.



--
 
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French circumflex accents (^) are often the mark of an old s, that ceased to be pronounced and disappeared -- thus we have forêt (forest), bête (beast), prévôt (provost), mât (mast), etc. Chesne is an older spelling for chêne (oak) (wiktionary -- "From Middle French chesne, from Old French chesne, chaisne, chasne, from Vulgar Latin cassanus (attested in Medieval Latin as casnus), probably from Gaulish cassanos."): "Duchesne" or "Duchêne" means "of the oak"; it's not rare as a surname. The final s in "Duchênes" is harder to explain -- but the name does seem to occur (though less frequently) with this spelling as well.
Anyway, "Duchesne" and "Duchênes" would have identical pronunciation and general meaning, hence switching from one to the other (either by mistake in an isolated document, or during the evolution of the name) would not be very difficult.

In the present case, "Duchesne de Lamotte" seems to be the most widely accepted spelling, with "Duchesne de la Motte" the most frequent variant. (In the registers of the parish of Saint Sépulcre, Abbeville, where he was baptised in 1786, Jean Jules appears as "Duchesne Delamotte": [here], image 28/196; in 1860, however, the administration of Abbeville registered his death under the name "Duchesne de Lamotte: [here], image 224/285. [OTOH, I have never seen a letter being capitalized in the middle of a word as in "LaMotte" in standard European French.]) There is a street named rue Duchesne de Lamotte (this spelling) in Abbeville. The coat of arms of the family: [here]; the genealogy of Jean Jules: [here]; a drawing of his tumbstone: [here]; a Great Auk, donated by Duchesne de Lamotte, now at the Musée Boucher de Perthes in Abbeville: [here]; an allusion to the private bird collections of Baillon and Duchesne de la Motte in Abbeville by Jacques Boucher de Perthes, in 1859: [here]; Jean-Baptiste Bailly, in 1854, acknowledging the donation of bird specimens by Duchesne de Lamotte, from Abbeville: [here]; etc.

It seems he had an elder brother, named Jean Pierre -- making him the benjamin in his family. Perhaps this word was added next to his name somewhere, and later interpreted by a reader as being part of it?
 
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Thanks Laurent!

Wow! I love those replies of yours; rich, thorough and hard-to-oppose. Simply exemplary! :t:

We, you, apparently managed James to accept this guy (here) … I knew nothing about him before. You sure took us a bit, a far bit, further.

However, time for some last questions, or remarks (in this thread), following the same path (i.e. Justin's Paper, from 2015, link in Post #17) … and this Post might only be of interest for Justin (and the Staff of MNHN, of course) … this said, now let´s have a look at:

moussieri
● as in the Moroccan (alt. North-West African) endemic: Moussier's Redstart Phoenicurus moussieri OLPHE-GALLIARD 1852 (here) as "Erithacus Moussieri" a k a Coroneted Redstart
Ce dernier affirmait à M. Moussier, ex-chirurgien au premier bataillon de la légion étrangère, l'avoir déjà remarqué en Espange.
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Explained in today's HBW Alive Key as:
moussieri
Surgeon-Maj. Jean Moussier (1795-?1850) French Army, with the Foreign Legion in Algeria, naturalist, collector (Phoenicurus).
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Note: I see no reason to question James's claim what so ever, it seems logic, as the Type apparently was collected by this Jean Moussier, outside Oran in north-west of Algeria, but I got a bit confused by a sentence in Justin's Paper (for the year 1808, p.84): "In 1808 some birds from Cayenne, Martinique and the U.S.A. were received from Jean Moussier (1795-1850)"

It sure looks like the same guy, or … ? But if so, how does it add up? Born in 1795, and already in 1808 sending birds from "Cayenne, Martinique and the U.S.A"!? However, either way, something's odd with the 1808 claim, isn´t it? It ought to quite rare with such a young collector. Or something´s wrong with the birth year itself?

The other option would (of course) be that it was a completely other Mr. Moussier that sent those birds from America?

Anyone know?

And James, how come you´ve added the question mark on Jean Moussier's death year? It wasn´t present in your Dictionary of Scientific Bird Names (Helm, 2010) …? Any particular reason?

Just curious …

Björn
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Calalp said:
The other option would (of course) be that it was a completely other Mr. Moussier that sent those birds from America?
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Jean Baptiste (AKA John Baptist) Moussier?

According to various genealogy sites:
Was born in 1774 in Vienne, Isère, France; died 11 June 1831 in New Orleans, LA, USA. Married Marie Anne Catherine Elizabeth Constance Geneviève "Chloé" Piriou de Horellou (alt. Piriou Kérellou, alt. Piriou de Kerrellow, alt. Périon de Killore...!?) Lezongar (de) Lassalle (wow! ;)), 3 July 1806 in Philadephia, USA. Chloé was born in 1788 in Cap Français, Haïti, Saint-Domingue, and died 13 June 1836 in New Orleans, LA, USA.

[Here], you can see a scan of a passport that was delivered to him in Bordeaux in Oct 1808, which says he was a naturaliste, and was then going aux Etats-Unis, rejoindre son épouse (to the United States, to join his wife).

See also [this], which undoubtedly concerns the same person (see the reference to "Mr Louis Ferrier, Négt à Bordeaux", whose name and signature are also on Moussier's passport).

The geographical details seem to make him a good candidate to have been in possession of "birds from Cayenne, Martinique and the U.S.A" in 1808. He was 34 years old, so his age is not a barrier. The passport proves that he stayed in France at this date (when the Museum received these birds), before returning to the States.
 
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Thanks Laurent! That guy seems, in my mind, a far more likely candidate for having delivered those American birds … (simply a stray Naturalist in this Forum, to my knowledge not commemorated in any bird at all, thereby I think we can leave him there, here and now) … with no connection what-so-ever to Moussier's Redstart.

What does Justin say?

And James? I´m still a bit curious of the reason for that question mark regarding the death year of "Jean Moussier (1795-?1850)", the one person, in fact, commemorated in Moussier's Redstart Phoenicurus moussieri.
 
Thanks Justin, and, sorry to point it out, but I think there´s another small error, or typo, in your Paper (this time for the years 1793-1799, p.84) as it is written: "At least one bird is present in MNHN collected by Michel Adanson (1727-1805) in Senegal" . It ought to be (1727-1806). Mr. Adanson apparently died in Paris, 3 August 1806 …

… commemorated in
● Blue Quail (Coturnix/Synoicus) Excalfactoria adansonii VERREAUX & VERREAUX 1851 (here) a k a African Blue Quail, African painted quail or King Quail

That´s all.

Björn

PS. And by the way Justin: quite an impressive Paper! Many, countless, hours behind it I assume. Thanks for sharing! Almost impossible to include that massive amount of info, believe me, I know from experience, without the odd error or typo. Well done. :t:
 
Calalp said:
Thanks Justin, and, sorry to point it out, but I think there´s another small error, or typo, in your Paper (this time for the years 1793-1799, p.84) as it is written: "At least one bird is present in MNHN collected by Michel Adanson (1727-1805) in Senegal" . It ought to be (1727-1806). Mr. Adanson apparently died in Paris, 3 August 1806 …

… commemorated in
● Blue Quail (Coturnix/Synoicus) Excalfactoria adansonii VERREAUX & VERREAUX 1851 (here) a k a African Blue Quail, African painted quail or King Quail

That´s all.

Björn

PS. And by the way Justin: quite an impressive Paper! Many, countless, hours behind it I assume. Thanks for sharing! Almost impossible to include that massive amount of info, believe me, I know from experience, without the odd error or typo. Well done. :t:
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Thanks Björn, they will be all corrected in the future, and there is a part 1826-1860 in the making. So let them comming.
 
Björn,
Erythacus Mousssieri was described in 1852, and there dedicated to the former surgeon of the 1st Battalion of the Foreign Legion, based in Oran. My "?1850" reflected that Surgeon Moussier may have died thereabouts, or he could just have retired from the service. I will amend "?1850" to "?1852", since, according to Wynne, 1969, p. 148, he was with the Legion in Oran in 1852. Let us hope that we are all wrong and that the surgeon lived to a ripe old age.
Harmony reigns (or, at least, has a working majority)
James
 
Ok, James, fair enough, so the "1795-?1850" (alt. "1852") was, is equal of "fl.ditto".

I had the impression he died that year. My mistake.

Now let´s see if somebody can find out when he truly passed away?
 
"If it´s the same guy" In 1815 the same time as Moussier was in medical school. the three military med schools graduated app. 1150 doctors a year. 250 a year from Montpellier. Population of France in 1850 was about 35 million. Probabilities are it is the same guy.
 
Björn Bergenholtz said:
Thanks Justin, and, sorry to point it out, but I think there´s another small error, or typo, in your Paper (this time for the years 1793-1799, p.84) as it is written: "At least one bird is present in MNHN collected by Michel Adanson (1727-1805) in Senegal" . It ought to be (1727-1806). Mr. Adanson apparently died in Paris, 3 August 1806 …

… commemorated in
● Blue Quail (Coturnix/Synoicus) Excalfactoria adansonii VERREAUX & VERREAUX 1851 (here) a k a African Blue Quail, African painted quail or King Quail

That´s all.

Björn

PS. And by the way Justin: quite an impressive Paper! Many, countless, hours behind it I assume. Thanks for sharing! Almost impossible to include that massive amount of info, believe me, I know from experience, without the odd error or typo. Well done. :t:
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Correct he died 3. August 1806 in Paris in rue de la Victoire No 21 Visionneuse - Archives de Paris p. 35/50

As well t.3 (1815) - Histoire naturelle generale des pigeons et des gallinaces - Biodiversity Heritage Library was dedicated to him.

Did not get exactly this BOW key part:

(?Merops artefact: ex “Guêpier à longue queue du Sénégal” of d’Aubenton 1765-1781, pl. 314, and "Guêpier Adanson" of Levaillant 1807, pl. 13)

Levaillant plate Histoire naturelle des promerops, et des guêpiers - Biodiversity Heritage Library .
d’Aubenton t.4 - Planches enluminées d'histoire naturelle - Biodiversity Heritage Library

Just the fact that it is not clear which bird it is?
 
According https://cdnfiles1.biolovision.net/w...rfiles/FPPubli/FPP107Noticesbiographiques.pdf he was born 5 November 1795 in Sainte-Colombe-les-Vienne. p. 56/154

This should be his birth record https://archives.rhone.fr/ark:/28729/nh7084mjkvw9/7b289cc0-49b0-422a-aa13-6340e5bdc9c0 p. 4/9. So it looks like only Jean Moussier

It could be that he lived in 1854 in Lyon Annales de la Société d'Agriculture, Sciences, Arts et Commerce de Puy and I feel he might have died in 1855 in Vienne, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, France. See GAIA 9 : moteur de recherche p. 54/125. And as well not https://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ac69/visualiseur/etatcivil.html?id=690008158 p. 5/236.

But it is possible that he was alive in 1864 Annales de la Société d'agriculture, sciences, arts et commerce du Puy | 1864 | Gallica
... d'une proposition de M. le docteur Moussier, qui offre à la Société une collection ornithologiques de 213 sujets, constituant 212 espèces. Beaucoup de ces espèces sont exotiques et d'un inérêt secondaire pour le Musée du Puy.
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1859 Annales de la Société d'agriculture, sciences, arts et commerce du Puy | 1859 | Gallica
C'est un nouvel envoi de M. le docteur Moussier, renfermant neuf oiseaux du département de Haute-Loire, bien empaillés, placés sur un support blanc, et dont quelques espèces manquaient au Musée;
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(not the one died 28. March 1870 in Aubazat Rechercher dans l'état civil de la Haute-Loire p. 56/70)
 
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