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Canon 8d (1 Viewer)

Keith Reeder said:
From this article (which I agree with completely):
Let's say for the sake of argument that they are each four times noisier.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Woah! I have a problem with this statement. After all, the whole of the argument that follows is based on this one assumption and there is no evidence supplied that this assumption is true. If the assumption is false then the whole argument fails. It's a classic case of circular reasoning.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that each of the small sensels is 8 times noisier. Now we have a convincing argument that the higher pixel-density sensor is noisier than the lower-density sensor. But it only works because I made the assumption that the lower-density sensor was better.

Now I suspect that the initial, 4x noisier, assumption is incorrect. My physics isn't good enough to be sure, but I suspect the smaller sensels will be more than 4x noisier than the larger ones. There's something niggling my brain from something I learned about signal processing a long time ago that I can't put my finger on.

Until there's some decent evidence that the noise changes linearly with sensel size I'm afraid this article is meaningless.
 
I strongly beg to differ with your characterisation of the article as meaningless, Frank - you might not agree with some of the working assumptions the author makes, but the underlying logic can't be faulted, and - to the point - it exactly matches the direct experience of many of us.
 
Sounds like a good argument as long as you keep the framing the same and are not using the extra megapixels to crop more (to reveal more detail perhaps). Then your going back to the 100% crop situation, and you will see more noise.
 
Lighten up guys, back to what you would like to see on the new 8d,

Yes I know, I am the one that always goes off topic :-O
 
Keith Reeder said:
I strongly beg to differ with your characterisation of the article as meaningless, Frank - you might not agree with some of the working assumptions the author makes, but the underlying logic can't be faulted, and - to the point - it exactly matches the direct experience of many of us.
Click to expand...

Yes, the underlying logic is fine. But the conclusion (that small sensels are just as good as big ones) is based on that one assumption. As for experience, well none of us have the required experience - of comparing images from an 18MP sensor with images from an 8MP sensor using the same technology. Yes, 7D images are as good as (or better than) 20D images. But a lot of that is because of changes to the sensel design.

It would be very interesting to see what sort of images an 8D (see, back on topic ;) ) would produce if it had a 12MP sensor with all the latest stuff (gapless microlenses, reduced space taken up by non-sensing circuitry, etc.)
 
hollis_f said:
It would be very interesting to see what sort of images an 8D (see, back on topic ;) ) would produce if it had a 12MP sensor with all the latest stuff (gapless microlenses, reduced space taken up by non-sensing circuitry, etc.)
Click to expand...

Going back over the pixel bit.......

10d 6.3 MP
20d 8.2 MP
30d 8.2 MP
40d 10.1 MP
50d 15.1 MP
7d 18.0 MP
8d 21.0 MP this is what I think will happen, don't look back only forward :t:
 
Keith Reeder said:
Bigger window = bigger sensor.

Or, back to cameras: in noise terms my 7D is better than my 40D is better than my 30D - pixel density has increased and noise performance has improved. More pixels hasn't hurt at all, and noise has in fact improved. If more pixels meant more noise, I'd be writing "my 7D is worse than my 40D is worse than my 30D" - and it just ain't so..!

;)
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Ah but ... your 7D has a _much_ bigger window than your 40D which has a bigger window than your 30D.

Why ? because the frame _has_ become smaller - the inter-sensel space has been reduced. So you are nowhere near comparing like with like.

And that is without allowing for improvements in processing during that time ...

I would like to see an independent researcher put together an APS-C size sensor with, say, 10MP, sensels as large as possible using current technology, and another with 15 or 20MP, sensels as large as possible using current technology. How would they compare ?

Massively expensive piece of research, and I think there are far better uses for the money !

Mike.
 
This more or less noise on 7d vs. 50d discussion is going on at Swedish photography forums too. It´s really hard to understand who is correct when some compare images at 100%, some don´t and other variables apply too. Some really think that the 20d takes as good images as the 7d, and that the 7d even is noisier.
 
Fowl Mouth said:
Wait, what? The earth isn't flat???
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what is this earth you speak of??

as for the 8D...
I hope a 1.3x crop or full frame, with 12Mp... 6.5 Fps and a 100% viewfinder
also under £1600

unfortunately, canon thinks people still want to upgrade their camera for more Megapixels..
I will only upgrade from my 10Mp 400D(Xti rebel)
when they make a 12Mp APS-C with 6.5 FPS with 19 AF points, basically a downgraded 7D... oh and weather sealing as well!

so I will just buy lenses for another few years!

if i want a bigger print that requires more Mp, then i will stitch photos together to make a larger resolution file.

Will
 
If they do launch an 8D. they'll put on it as little as they can get away with. Since we are all so interested in new camera technology which gives us a perceived edge (maybe some are even fixated with it) then both Canon and Nikon only have to offer a smidgin extra ISO here, a little bit more mp there, a tilt screen here and a nooky docka dung busta there. We'll buy it you can bet your bottom dollar and they'll hardly have to market it. We've done all that hard work for them.
 
8d so its 21mp, AF at f8 for 1.4 TC, proximity sensor, in-built GPS, articulated LCD, a quiet shutter ...................... any others
 
something like 120 fps video, but having said this for an 8d, it could all go well for a 60d, which could be around august, either way its going to be a class leader.... I would love to see night shot incorporated!
 
Nikon Kid said:
8d so its 21mp, AF at f8 for 1.4 TC, proximity sensor, in-built GPS, articulated LCD, a quiet shutter ...................... any others
Click to expand...

while I'm sure some of those things will feature on the new camera as and when it is released, but I would be amazed if Canon were to include AF at f8 (they need to leave some features as exclusive to the 1D series). Why anyone would need 21mp is beyond me, it just slows the processing down when you have huge files to deal with.
 
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