Thank you all for your replies! Much appreciated! I need to go and find a pair to give them a shot..... What are the brand names and models I'm looking for? As I stated before the optics market in Albuquerque has a long way to come! There is a place here "Charlies Sporting Goods" That has a good selection of Alphas and they do sell Vortex. Not sure if Vortex is one of these Chinese HD's or not? But they are about the only game in town! maybe I'll take a trip to Phoenix? Kevin, thanks for the search tip, I'll do it!
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Zen Ray and Generation II ED's? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Buz
- Start date
Steve C
Well-known member
Zen Ray has a 30 day try it and return it for free policy. Try it, especially the new one you will have to wait till August for, and I doubt you send it back. Even if you prefer the alpha style, the ZEN is a heck of a loaner, learner, or backup binocular. That is about the only way you will get it done.
The Vortex Razor is of Japanese manufacture.
The Vortex Razor is of Japanese manufacture.
kristoffer
Used Register
My vipers are made in japan. USA brand? Not sure if USA-retailers want to import the Zens. Non-american cars and binoculars seem to be a bit sensitive, even if cloths and what not is made over there at the moment.
Steve C
Well-known member
The Zens are imported by the US company Zen Ray Optics. Those binoculars are made for them to their specifications someplace in China. So if a retailer wants to sell Zens, they will have to make a dealer arrangement with Zen Ray. Or they can do like Eagle Optics recently did and pursue their own "new version" of the binocular they recently released as the Atlas Optics Intrepid.
The US based company Vortex Optics imports binoculars made to their design specifications in either China or Japan. If somebody wants do deal in Vortex binoculars they have to make a dealer arrangement with Vortex.
In neither case can a retailer import a ZEN or a Viper directly from the manufacturer in either China or Japan.
Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
The "Zens", i.e. Zen Ray, are as US as Vortex is. Zen Ray is in Beaverton, OR. Vortex is in Middleton, WI. But both have most of their products made in China. Vortex had a few of the higher end bins made in Japan but I'm not too sure how long they'll keep doing that. They don't make this explicit on their web site.
I think by "Zens" you mean the "Chinese EDs". I think it's not a good idea to use their brand name as a genric name. Although that is a sign that they've arrived. Like xerox, kleenex and "to hoover" (to use the vacuum cleaner in the UK).
It's a good idea to separate them out as different Chinese EDs have different levels of company input. Some are just rebadged with the design done totally by the ODM (Original Design Manufacturer). I suspect Promaster might be like that. Others, like Zen from conversations I've had with them, have rather more optical input. I think Hawke and Eagle Optics too are in this class perhaps but perhaps less than Zen. I think we'll know more if they get to a second generation to see if there is more differentiation.
I think by "Zens" you mean the "Chinese EDs". I think it's not a good idea to use their brand name as a genric name. Although that is a sign that they've arrived. Like xerox, kleenex and "to hoover" (to use the vacuum cleaner in the UK).
It's a good idea to separate them out as different Chinese EDs have different levels of company input. Some are just rebadged with the design done totally by the ODM (Original Design Manufacturer). I suspect Promaster might be like that. Others, like Zen from conversations I've had with them, have rather more optical input. I think Hawke and Eagle Optics too are in this class perhaps but perhaps less than Zen. I think we'll know more if they get to a second generation to see if there is more differentiation.
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kristoffer
Used Register
The Zens are imported by the US company Zen Ray Optics. Those binoculars are made for them to their specifications someplace in China. So if a retailer wants to sell Zens, they will have to make a dealer arrangement with Zen Ray. Or they can do like Eagle Optics recently did and pursue their own "new version" of the binocular they recently released as the Atlas Optics Intrepid.
The US based company Vortex Optics imports binoculars made to their design specifications in either China or Japan. If somebody wants do deal in Vortex binoculars they have to make a dealer arrangement with Vortex.
In neither case can a retailer import a ZEN or a Viper directly from the manufacturer in either China or Japan.
So in reality the Zens aint more chinese then a viper or monarch? Still that´s what they often get called..
Hi Kristoffer,
Vortex has said in the past that the Vipers are made in Japan, so they aren't Chinese at all. I think Vortex' less expensive binos are made in China though.
Best,
Jim
Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
Precisely.
I can't remember which is which. But I think the Razor is Japanese but the Vipers are Chinese.
The Monarch's the first ones (most?) are certainly Japanese but I don't know if they've moved the manufacture to China for the most recent ones. It should say on the bin. Other cheaper Nikon bins are made in China.
Even Pentax has done this though without looking at the binocular's label you wouldn't guess. I didn't. I went two days before I realized my Pentax HS were not Japanese!
The issue is not where they're made. It's the quality of the product that counts. But there are still folks for whom their "German" car is superior. Even if it isn't made in Germany.
kristoffer
Used Register
Yeah I know that, I did not really mean the vipers. I meant vortex and the fact that they put the manufacturing where it´s not as expensive.
kristoffer
Used Register
My viper is made in japan. My girlfriends monarchs are made in china, about a year old. Yeah I guess what´s count is where the r/d office is.
Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
Thanks for the Monarch data.
I think the Viper question now depends on which model it is. The most recent ones (the 32mm ones) are made in China (IIRC from a recent post).
But how do you know where the development office is? Just because a company is in Japan, or the USA or Germany even it's difficult to say were the R&D is done. Globalization is not just in the manufacturing but in the design too.
Steve C
Well-known member
Kristoffer,
Let's try it this way. There are a limited number of places in the world where binoculars can be made. Some are in Europe, others in Asia. Very few of those make binoculars for only one company. So any optics company, whether a new one or a more established one has a somewhat limited number of places to have "their" binoculars made.
What they will do is (in some cases) either design their own binocular and look for the best place to get that design produced or they will go to one of the OEM companies and negotiate a set of specifications which leads to a binocular with their brand stamped on it. Some companies (Leupold designed Gold Ring for example) may have the parts shipped to their home location and assemble themselves. Just because one OEM makes binoculars for several companies, does not mean that all of the binoculars are the same.
The days of each company producing their own binoculars at their own plant do not exist except for a select few instances.
A Monarch is not a Viper (or more properly a Fury since the Fury is Chinese). The ZEN is neither a Monarch or a Fury. Just because they are Chinese does not make them the same. There is more than one OEM in China. The Viper and Razor are both Japanese and they are quite obviously different.
Just because two different companies use the same housing and the same OEM, they can specify enough internal differences to make their binoculars different in several ways. You can get a hint of the differences from the specifications they list, but there are internal differences which are not (or may not be) immediately apparent.
They days of each company being able to doe its own binocular from start to finish (except for a few instances) no longer exist. I suppose even Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss even out source some minor parts.
Let's try it this way. There are a limited number of places in the world where binoculars can be made. Some are in Europe, others in Asia. Very few of those make binoculars for only one company. So any optics company, whether a new one or a more established one has a somewhat limited number of places to have "their" binoculars made.
What they will do is (in some cases) either design their own binocular and look for the best place to get that design produced or they will go to one of the OEM companies and negotiate a set of specifications which leads to a binocular with their brand stamped on it. Some companies (Leupold designed Gold Ring for example) may have the parts shipped to their home location and assemble themselves. Just because one OEM makes binoculars for several companies, does not mean that all of the binoculars are the same.
The days of each company producing their own binoculars at their own plant do not exist except for a select few instances.
A Monarch is not a Viper (or more properly a Fury since the Fury is Chinese). The ZEN is neither a Monarch or a Fury. Just because they are Chinese does not make them the same. There is more than one OEM in China. The Viper and Razor are both Japanese and they are quite obviously different.
Just because two different companies use the same housing and the same OEM, they can specify enough internal differences to make their binoculars different in several ways. You can get a hint of the differences from the specifications they list, but there are internal differences which are not (or may not be) immediately apparent.
They days of each company being able to doe its own binocular from start to finish (except for a few instances) no longer exist. I suppose even Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss even out source some minor parts.
kristoffer
Used Register
I don't know, I just answered in reply to the comment about the bmws. It´s often a lot harder to move the r/d then the factory because r/d requires a well educated country to find workers in. Hence western countries often got the HQs still on their territories even if the factories moved. Something above place of manufacturing "makes" the brand.
Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
I think, Kristoffer, you over estimate the tech today behind bin design.
There are plenty of good optical engineers with decent tech in China. In this case it's clearly quite easy to move all the work including the design and the R&D work in China. China built the foundations of their optical industry because they need military optics. Now post their "semi-capitalist" revolution they are using their well-educated manpower (a billion people with the same fraction of smart people) and their already established skills to expand into this market.
I think even Leica then Zeiss started to realize this in the early 1960s when they stopped designing porros. They did that because it was a mature technology: anyone could do it and they knew they had to do something else.
I suspect the roof prism bin technology is now getting to the stage that the technology is maturing to the state that "any sufficiently smart people with some capital" can do it. And the ones who can do it more cheaply will make money.
So in the first world all you are left with is the brand if you loose the technical lead. The question becomes what does the brand stand for. For the top bin makers in Europe they still have a technical advantage but its narrowing. How big will the gap be in a decade They do have amazing "goodwill" in their brand: they are well known and carry a lot of prestige. And then there is a badge and the price it comes with. What's the future model for these guys? Ferrari: amazing cars at amazing prices? So long as people will pay the price for the badge (and I hope slightly more advanced tech) then they will be able to stay in business. But one wonders what's next for them.
BTW, in the original comment I wasn't thinking about BMWs but of a lot of "German" brands that are made elsewhere on the planet (e.g. VW).
Anyhow well see what advance has been made when the ED2 bins ship.
There are plenty of good optical engineers with decent tech in China. In this case it's clearly quite easy to move all the work including the design and the R&D work in China. China built the foundations of their optical industry because they need military optics. Now post their "semi-capitalist" revolution they are using their well-educated manpower (a billion people with the same fraction of smart people) and their already established skills to expand into this market.
I think even Leica then Zeiss started to realize this in the early 1960s when they stopped designing porros. They did that because it was a mature technology: anyone could do it and they knew they had to do something else.
I suspect the roof prism bin technology is now getting to the stage that the technology is maturing to the state that "any sufficiently smart people with some capital" can do it. And the ones who can do it more cheaply will make money.
So in the first world all you are left with is the brand if you loose the technical lead. The question becomes what does the brand stand for. For the top bin makers in Europe they still have a technical advantage but its narrowing. How big will the gap be in a decade They do have amazing "goodwill" in their brand: they are well known and carry a lot of prestige. And then there is a badge and the price it comes with. What's the future model for these guys? Ferrari: amazing cars at amazing prices? So long as people will pay the price for the badge (and I hope slightly more advanced tech) then they will be able to stay in business. But one wonders what's next for them.
BTW, in the original comment I wasn't thinking about BMWs but of a lot of "German" brands that are made elsewhere on the planet (e.g. VW).
Anyhow well see what advance has been made when the ED2 bins ship.
But better than my SE's?
Ok, Ok I know this is a redundant question because I've already asked it and it has been answered but you all have me thinking of pitching my Leicas, Swaros, and my new precious SE's for Chinese HD's! Not really! Would never happen! But I did ask about the optical quality vs 10yo Alpha bins such as the Nikon SE's and the response was that they are in many ways better than the 10yo Alphas? So who is going to be the first one here to go on record and say that these are better glass than a Nikon SE? Which can be had by smart buyers on ebay in the $400 range.....
Ok, Ok I know this is a redundant question because I've already asked it and it has been answered but you all have me thinking of pitching my Leicas, Swaros, and my new precious SE's for Chinese HD's! Not really! Would never happen! But I did ask about the optical quality vs 10yo Alpha bins such as the Nikon SE's and the response was that they are in many ways better than the 10yo Alphas? So who is going to be the first one here to go on record and say that these are better glass than a Nikon SE? Which can be had by smart buyers on ebay in the $400 range.....
Steve C
Well-known member
Preference is often a strictly personal thing. I think most of the posters in praise of the ZEN like the smallness of the difference you illustrate. That and the fact it is less than $400 US.
It comes down to just what that difference is worth to whoever is buying. There is certainly a certain level of security with one of the alphas, in that you will know in the back of your mind you have an optic not to be bettered.
Kevin Purcell
Well-known member
I've already compared the Zen Ray ED to an SE (search the forum
) and the ZR ED is not better optically. It's close but the SE has the edge optically though almost but not quite as good in color though it is very good for a non-ED bin. And the SE has much better off-axis stray light suppression.But to link to another thread the Zen's are really (JIS7) waterproof: you can drop the Zen in water and have no problems. You can do that with the Zen Ray. You can't with the SE. You can wash a Zen under a running tap or in a sink full of water. You can't with an SE.
Ergos are different too. The SE is famous for the EP pickiness (needing precise centering on the eye) and excess ER compared to the rubber eyecups. Part of the trade off in the EP design to get the optical qualities they wanted. These are not issues with the Zen. And it is easier to hold a roof prisms steady (especially and open bridge roof) than it is a porro even though the SE is better than a lot of porros out there (a proto-open bridge with that gap at the hinge). The focus on the SE is slow mainly due to higher tension. either of these are warbler bins but the Zen wins this one. Both get stiffer in the cold.
But talking about 10 year old "alphas" comparison. It knocks the Zeiss Victory 8x40 into a cocked hat. Better sharpness, better color and better image contrast/on-axis stray light in the Zen. The Victory is fractionaly brighter (though AK prisms do help). Though I've not tried them I expect the same of similar era non-ED top bins except the difference should be rather less (as the Zeiss was consider the weakest of the Top 4 at that point) though the difference in color and sharpness, I think, should be obvious.
Ultimately I like both the Zen and the SE. Perhaps the SE more as I have both 8x32 and 10x42 but only the 8x Zen.
Used SEs are great value if you can find them at a good price.
As I've pointed out many times: all bins are compromises. Make your pick of the properties you like and get that bin. Or get more than one
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Hahaha, Ok OK I'll get off it, really I will! I trust all of you opinions. They mean a lot and are very appreciated. I guess I've just been a optics snob for so long now its hard for me to believe! I have always saved my butt off so I could have the best glass in the field. Not for anything silly like prestige or anything, I just don't want to repeat the mistakes of my past and know how important the very best optics are when heading out to the field for whatever your hobby that includes them is. Look, it took me almost ten years to buy a pair of Nikon's (the 8x32 SE's) and they were so good I bought the whole set of them within 10 days! Now my 10x42 EL's and BRF's just sit! So, I guess I need to broaden my horizons a little? But I have to admit that "TO ME" there is some comfort that comes with a company's history, record, and name badge..... So please don't hold it against me if I'm still a little biased towards the German and now (thanks to Nikon supreme SE's) Japanese optics. Now, If they could only introduce a new Superior E with ED glass, twist out eye cups, and fully sealed I think we would all stop our continued search for the #1 bin! One last question though if you would allow me please? Nikon has always touted the SE as having better glass, is it possible that they already have ED glass in them or at least several elements that are ED?I've already compared the Zen Ray ED to an SE (search the forum
But to link to another thread the Zen's are really (JIS7) waterproof: you can drop the Zen in water and have no problems. You can do that with the Zen Ray. You can't with the SE. You can wash a Zen under a running tap or in a sink full of water. You can't with an SE.
Ergos are different too. The SE is famous for the EP pickiness (needing precise centering on the eye) and excess ER compared to the rubber eyecups. Part of the trade off in the EP design to get the optical qualities they wanted. These are not issues with the Zen. And it is easier to hold a roof prisms steady (especially and open bridge roof) than it is a porro even though the SE is better than a lot of porros out there (a proto-open bridge with that gap at the hinge). The focus on the SE is slow mainly due to higher tension. either of these are warbler bins but the Zen wins this one. Both get stiffer in the cold.
But talking about 10 year old "alphas" comparison. It knocks the Zeiss Victory 8x40 into a cocked hat. Better sharpness, better color and better image contrast/on-axis stray light in the Zen. The Victory is fractionaly brighter (though AK prisms do help). Though I've not tried them I expect the same of similar era non-ED top bins except the difference should be rather less (as the Zeiss was consider the weakest of the Top 4 at that point) though the difference in color and sharpness, I think, should be obvious.
Ultimately I like both the Zen and the SE. Perhaps the SE more as I have both 8x32 and 10x42 but only the 8x Zen.
Used SEs are great value if you can find them at a good price.
As I've pointed out many times: all bins are compromises. Make your pick of the properties you like and get that bin. Or get more than one
