Need Flash Gun advice (1 Viewer)

Roy C · Jul 10, 2009

Having never used a flash gun in my life I am looking for some advice. I am looking to get a gun for macro as well as general photography (maybe even birds with a better beamer).
I realise that the Canon MT-24EX is the daddy of the macro flashes but I could not justify this for little macro shooting I do. I guess the choice comes down to the 430EX II or the 580 EX II. What are the pros and cons of these two units and which would you advise me to buy. Also do I need any thing else like brackets, diffusers or off camera shoe cord? Thanks in advance.

Overread · Jul 10, 2009

Well if your going for your first flash then a 430EX2 or 580M2 are certainly good versitile choices to go for since they will work for almost any flash setup need. The 580 has some strong features like being a master flash, higher max output and a few other nice things that I forget. The problem though is weight - the 580 is heavy and for macro work the ideal flash position is right above the subject - which with a braket is possible, but with a 580 I can honestly say its not that workable for most people - the weight takes its toll on your arms quickly - ok for a few shots, but then things start to get tired and shake becomes a real problem.

For pure macro work there are some other 3rdparty flashes which you might consider looking at - several people here are using/thinking of using/are waiting for the postman to deliver small sunpak flashes held with brakets over the subject. The key part is that with the flash in that position you don't need a highpowered output (even the 430 is rather overkill)

As for diffusers Lumiquest softboxes (or margerine tubes) are popular choices, giving a good diffused light without being to big.
I would also suggest you check out the following threads for ideas and suggestions on different lighting setups (as well as other things).

http://www.juzaforum.com/forum-en/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4027

http://www.juzaforum.com/forum-en/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4901

Roy C · Jul 10, 2009

Overread said:
Well if your going for your first flash then a 430EX2 or 580M2 are certainly good versitile choices to go for since they will work for almost any flash setup need. The 580 has some strong features like being a master flash, higher max output and a few other nice things that I forget. The problem though is weight - the 580 is heavy and for macro work the ideal flash position is right above the subject - which with a braket is possible, but with a 580 I can honestly say its not that workable for most people - the weight takes its toll on your arms quickly - ok for a few shots, but then things start to get tired and shake becomes a real problem.

For pure macro work there are some other 3rdparty flashes which you might consider looking at - several people here are using/thinking of using/are waiting for the postman to deliver small sunpak flashes held with brakets over the subject. The key part is that with the flash in that position you don't need a highpowered output (even the 430 is rather overkill)

As for diffusers Lumiquest softboxes (or margerine tubes) are popular choices, giving a good diffused light without being to big.
I would also suggest you check out the following threads for ideas and suggestions on different lighting setups (as well as other things).

http://www.juzaforum.com/forum-en/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4027

http://www.juzaforum.com/forum-en/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4901

Thanks for that 'overread'. I never thought about the weight problem. Is the sunpak flash the RD2000?

I have been doing some reading on the RD2000 and it looks good being small and light weight, Like I said I know nothing at all about flash so excuse my ignorance but I have the following questions.

Is the Guide number the power of the flash? if so is GN 20 enough for macro?

A lot of people are using on the G9 or G10.Will it work OK on the 40D.

It does not rotate from side to side - is this a disadvantage for macro work?

Do you know if there is a diffuser for the RD2000

Can you just dial-in a -1 or -2 EV on the unit to get fill flash?

also What bracket would you recommend for macro work with it.

Many Thanks
Roy C

p.s. thanks for the Jaza links - BTW I had already posted the same question on the Jaza site.

Nikon Kid · Jul 10, 2009

Hi Roy, have you considered a ring flash, I am thinking about the Sigma EM 140.

Roy C · Jul 10, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
Hi Roy, have you considered a ring flash, I am thinking about the Sigma EM 140.

Certainly have Terry, seems a neat solution but for some reason they do not seem to be very popular with the macro guys - I am trying to find out more.

Overread · Jul 10, 2009

The Sunpak RD2000 is what me and a few others were looking at for a good macro flash and I know that Dalentech has used one to good effect with the twinflash as well; but more recently this flash - the Sunpak PF-20XD
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sunpak-PF-2...m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=0XZ2KNWEDCBK0N7R6ATT
Has caught my (and a few others) eye. It offers manual controls as well as compensation (exposure comensation is all the RD2000 has) as well as light and small (AAA batteries). I have one on order and so should soon be able to give it a test.

And yes the guide number is the max flash power output (at least as far as I understand things) and I think the twinflashes are only around 20 as well - for most macro your not throwing the light a long way nor having to light a large area so you don't need that much power.

As for cameras it will certainly work on the larger DSLRs just as well as on the smaller cameras - its just marketed in that direction

As for rotation if your working from a braket that can do the rotations most likley - if in the hotshow it should not be a problem at all, I don't recall ever really bouncing the flash for macro, though have used the angle change on the 580M2 to lie it flatter agianst the ground.

As for a diffuser I think its to the custom job for the PF-20XD and with its small front element a diffuser to open out the lighting will be important. The RD200 might very well fit a Lumiquest minisoftbox, I have had good results with their regular sized one.

As for brackets I have had my eye on one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Flash-Rotatin...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1690|293:1|294:50
that is just one company there are loads selling that same make on ebay. Or you can check the last page of the longer thread I linked to - it has a custom bracket design for a single small flash.

Nikon Kid · Jul 10, 2009

Overread, have you ever tried the Sigma EM140 ring flash, It just seems a neat solution to the flash problem, looks easy to fit, and does not look to heavy, It seems pretty adjustable by its specification, and the price is also acceptable.

Roy C · Jul 11, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
Hi Roy, have you considered a ring flash, I am thinking about the Sigma EM 140.

I have been digging around on ring flashes Terry and it seems like the biggest con is that the light is flat and shadowless that makes it difficult to show surface detail and texture, some describe it as an un-natural look. These flashes have two lights and some say things can be improved by switching one off to create shadows but it takes some learning.
I went through a very large thread where a couple of hundred keen macro shooters were showing their macro rigs and very few were using ring flashes - I guess this should tell us something! Some of the rigs have weird configurations of lights, switches, brackets, tape and margarine tube for diffusers almost put me off the whole idea :-O
I suppose the other big con for a ring would be that it is no good for other types of photography.

I am leaning towards a Canon 430 EXII and a LQ- 107 diffuser which apparently works with a 100mm lens straight on the hot shoe without prating around with brackets - not sure if it would work with the 150mm though as it would by longer I guess.

Overread · Jul 11, 2009

Roy the hotshoe is currently where my flash lives for most of my shooting, with the 150mm it gives a good pleasing lighting without unbalancing your rig. I know die hard flash addicts are always saying get off the hotshoe, but honestly its not that bad and its about the best place to start - those multiflash massive rigs with laser and powers know what else in there are cool and fun, but nobody starts there

(ok very few start there).

If you can afford it at the same time as the flash pickup an offcamera flash cable (the short coiled canon is ok for mounding the flash on a bracket, but I would plug for a longer one if you want to rest the flash on the ground in any position - the shorter one tends to end up pulling it out of position as you move), Its something that you can experiment around with should you find a sleeping bug

paul goode · Jul 11, 2009

Roy C said:
I suppose the other big con for a ring would be that it is no good for other types of photography.

I am leaning towards a Canon 430 EXII and a LQ- 107 diffuser which apparently works with a 100mm lens straight on the hot shoe without prating around with brackets - not sure if it would work with the 150mm though as it would by longer I guess.

Not quite correct about ring flash Roy. different birds :-O:-O but ring flash is used a lot in fashion photography. Its dead easy to spot, look for polo shaped catchlights.

I attended a recent lecture by a wedding 'tog and he uses one of these
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1026202
with a 580ex II. He really rated it, but admittedly he doesn't do macro photography

Even with a diffuser on I'd be very surprised if a 430 hadn't got enough power for macro work. I use a 580ex II with an omni bounce diffuser and it isn't short of power even in dark venues.

Edit. If the budget runs to it I would go for the 580 over the 430 but if you want a flash system to work properly buy Nikon!

Nikon Kid · Jul 11, 2009

I also have been reading about the ring flash EM140 and it don't seem to be the best equipment for macro on insects etc, I would be interested to know how you get on overread with this the Sunpak PF-20XD and the ebay bracket this might be a good cheap starting point. Please let us know and some pics of your setup would be nice, I will wait till we have seen them, and being as you have the same lens this will be a bonus.

Roy C · Jul 11, 2009

From what I have been reading, even the pop-up in camera flash has enough power for macro work but it is a case of channelling the light to the right place which is the problem.

The cheap little sunpak's look interesting. I am a bit reluctant to spend much on a flash as personally I have not got any use for one apart from macro stuff and I only mess around with this for a few months in the summer when there are no birds in the estuary. Over the past three years I think I have only used the in camera pop-up flash a couple of times and that was just to see if it worked :-O

p.s. Paul, I have since read that ring flash is used by fashion photographers as you say.

666taz · Jul 11, 2009

I,ve used my pop up but if you are really close to the subject i dosent light it up as your lens gets in the way.I bought a 480x and a bracket and extension cord haven't used it for macro yet but carn't see any reason it wouldn't work as you can use the bracket to swing your flash round to the side of the camera ,the bracket also has a ball head on so you can just about put the flash where you want .To be honest its what i got it for as i dont use flash for much else.

Nikon Kid · Jul 11, 2009

Roy C said:
p.s. Paul, I have since read that ring flash is used by fashion photographers as you say.

So if I get one will they let this old fart near them birds, you know the ones without feathers :king::t::eat

3

I've gone back to sleep.

Nikon Kid · Jul 11, 2009

Roy C said:
From what I have been reading, even the pop-up in camera flash has enough power for macro work but it is a case of channelling the light to the right place which is the problem.

I did see a cardboard setup that channelled the popup flash to the front of the lens whilst looking through the forums, how it worked and if it was useful I don't know, but it would only cost a few pence and some glue I might just try to make one.

Roy C · Jul 11, 2009

Nikon Kid said:
I did see a cardboard setup that channelled the popup flash to the front of the lens whilst looking through the forums, how it worked and if it was useful I don't know, but it would only cost a few pence and some glue I might just try to make one.

Yep, I have seen a few like that Terry. Cardboard tube and plenty of tin foil. Trouble is if you go out and about with some of these set-up's your are likely to get carted away by men in white coats :-O

Nikon Kid · Jul 11, 2009

Roy C said:
Yep, I have seen a few like that Terry. Cardboard tube and plenty of tin foil. Trouble is if you go out and about with some of these set-up's your are likely to get carted away by men in white coats :-O

Yes true, but once you have made it and if it works ??? you can then paint it black will not be too noticeable then.

postcardcv · Jul 11, 2009

Roy C said:
I have been digging around on ring flashes Terry and it seems like the biggest con is that the light is flat and shadowless that makes it difficult to show surface detail and texture, some describe it as an un-natural look. These flashes have two lights and some say things can be improved by switching one off to create shadows but it takes some learning.

Not all ring flashes are like this, some of the cheaper ones are a single tube, the Sigma is two lights but I don't think you can control them independantly, but with the Canon you can adjust the sides to avoid flat lighting. Here's a cheap ring flash http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1026071 add some paper on one side to give some shadowing.

Personally I use an EX580II, though don't use it much for macro, it's a good flash gun almost certainly the best all rounder for a Canon user.

Roy C · Jul 11, 2009

postcardcv said:
Not all ring flashes are like this, some of the cheaper ones are a single tube, the Sigma is two lights but I don't think you can control them independantly, but with the Canon you can adjust the sides to avoid flat lighting.

The comments I was reading must have been about the Canon (MR-14EX I believe).

Nikon Kid · Jul 12, 2009

What's the best settings on my 50d built in flash to try and use for some macro shots.

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