Mike Price
Well-known member
there are vast numbers of corvids around here, maybe its something to do with the fact that someone has removed all of their natural predators
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Magpies and crows to be culled to protect songbirds (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter John B (not the sloop)
- Start date
Nature__lover
Well-known member
the predator-prey cycle is a NATURAL part of nature.
doing this will completely upset the balance and songbirds will lose natural predators.
an example is the dodo- it became extinct because it ended up having no natural predators, so had evolved to have no way of protecting itself, so when predators (humans) came a long, they where completely defenceless!
doing this will completely upset the balance and songbirds will lose natural predators.
an example is the dodo- it became extinct because it ended up having no natural predators, so had evolved to have no way of protecting itself, so when predators (humans) came a long, they where completely defenceless!
AnotherNightOwl
Registered Guest
Completely agree with you.
Wildmoreway
Well-known member
Local to me in Torquay is Wall Hill, an SSSI and a place that should be ideal for ground nesting birds, the only birds I see on the ground there are crows but they aren't the problem, the problem is that everyone takes fido for a walk there and at any given time there are at least a dozen dogs on the rampage .... that I think is the main reason for the lack of ground nesting birds there, and a probable reason in quite a lot of other urban open spaces.
Irish Kite
Well-known member
bluechaffinch
Well-known member
For a spot of lighter relief, take a look at this unintentionally hilarious website, where every passerine is an 'innocent', and every controlled Sparrowhawk is unmourned
Bloody hell. What a bizarre website. Whoever writes simply can't spell and forms sentences from random words.
To read it you would think that there are no small birds left at all - do they ever get out in the garden?
Bloody hell. What a bizarre website. Whoever writes simply can't spell and forms sentences from random words.
To read it you would think that there are no small birds left at all - do they ever get out in the garden?
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
bluechaffinch
Well-known member
They've probably got a "man" to do that for them.
I suspect that's very close to the truth for many of them! The whole website is just plain weird - just look at any of the comments - they are in garbled English, as though someone's translated English to Japanese and then back again. Apparently Sparrowhawks and other vermin are responsible for the decline in "Cirl bunting + 4 different types" whatever that means!
I would hazard a guess that whoever manages that blog is jobless or retired and loves cats. I might just have to post a few spoof comments/posts to see if I can get a bite...
I suspect that's very close to the truth for many of them! The whole website is just plain weird - just look at any of the comments - they are in garbled English, as though someone's translated English to Japanese and then back again. Apparently Sparrowhawks and other vermin are responsible for the decline in "Cirl bunting + 4 different types" whatever that means!
I would hazard a guess that whoever manages that blog is jobless or retired and loves cats. I might just have to post a few spoof comments/posts to see if I can get a bite...
I agree and the presenter said something like "conservationists are split on the issue" as if both groups were conservation organisations.
Its the equivalent of hosting a debate between David Cameron and Nick Griffin and not pointing out that one is the prime minister and the other is the leader of a far right party.
I don't understand why the RSPB guy just accepted the situation rather than pointing out to the listeners that the organisations are not comparable in any way and that conservationists aren't split on the issue. Songbird Survival are not conservationists.
bluechaffinch
Well-known member
The same 'debate' was on Farming Today this morning. The RSPB bod said that they didn't have a problem with culling corvids per se, but that they were concerned that any 'positive' results could be used to justify raptor culls.
What the RSPB do not (wisely) advertise is that they routinely cull corvids and foxes on their Abernethy estate in order to protect Capercaillie. It would be a tad hypocritical of them to condemn calls for corvid control, although their culls are based upon sound evidence, unlike those championed by SBS.
What the RSPB do not (wisely) advertise is that they routinely cull corvids and foxes on their Abernethy estate in order to protect Capercaillie. It would be a tad hypocritical of them to condemn calls for corvid control, although their culls are based upon sound evidence, unlike those championed by SBS.
Adam W
Well-known member
Thats seems like a perfectly fair and sensible statement from them.:t:
Adam W
Well-known member
Theres one thing I think its worth pointing out because from a few comments made it seems some people are unware of what happens already and that is that if this cull was to go ahead it wouldnt be as opposed to the 'natural' balance we have now as what we have now isnt even close to a 'natural ' balance is the result of centuaries of Corvids being really rather heavily controlled.
bluechaffinch
Well-known member
Quite true. Corvids are already controlled all across the country. The GCT's Allerton Project at Loddington in Leics have studied the effects of predator control on nesting songbirds for a number of years:
http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__surveys/the_allerton_project/songbird_research_at_allerton/391.asp
It appears that whilst increased predator numbers clearly have an impact, the effects lessen as songbird densities increase.
It would be interesting to investigate corvid increases in urban/suburban areas as compared to the wider countryside. I would guess that much of the vitriol aimed at predators is related to an increased perception of their effects within an urban/suburban context - people soonnotice if their friendly garden birds have disappeared (probably into the neighbour's cat).
http://www.gwct.org.uk/research__surveys/the_allerton_project/songbird_research_at_allerton/391.asp
It appears that whilst increased predator numbers clearly have an impact, the effects lessen as songbird densities increase.
It would be interesting to investigate corvid increases in urban/suburban areas as compared to the wider countryside. I would guess that much of the vitriol aimed at predators is related to an increased perception of their effects within an urban/suburban context - people soonnotice if their friendly garden birds have disappeared (probably into the neighbour's cat).
Irish Kite
Well-known member
The concept of any such study by the likes of SBS having any scientific merit or creditability is quiet frankly laughable|^|
Wildmoreway
Well-known member
A trip along almost any country lane will also reveal another negative influence on songbird numbers, that of farm buildings being converted to housing and the associated loss of suitable adjacent hedgerow and trees that are suitable for nest sites ... few of these barn conversions seem to have the bird friendly gardens of more traditional types of dwellings.
Simon Wates
Well-known member
Can anybody lead me to decent information about the decline of insects - in urban or non-urban areas?
I have a nagging suspicion that this is a major player in the general decline of songbirds.
What torments me are possible futuristic scenarios after much culling of corvids becomes hallowed as being successful and bringing back songbird numbers - when really its because insects increase due to lowering of pollution due to a massive change to electric cars and cleaner energy production etc.....
I have great difficulty in believing long term predator.prey imbalance
I have a nagging suspicion that this is a major player in the general decline of songbirds.
What torments me are possible futuristic scenarios after much culling of corvids becomes hallowed as being successful and bringing back songbird numbers - when really its because insects increase due to lowering of pollution due to a massive change to electric cars and cleaner energy production etc.....
I have great difficulty in believing long term predator.prey imbalance
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chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Let them kill off most of the corvids then start up a rival organisation " Corvid Conservation ". I don't expect you'll get many blue-blooded / inbred supporters though.
Chris
Chris
Songbird Email
I got this email reply to my request for more information as to their reasons for the research today:
'SongBird Survival, in commissioning the first ever fully experimental scientific research into the effect of magpie and crow predation on songbird populations, is not ignoring other reasons for small bird decline. This is just one of many research projects, on many reasons for small bird decline, undertaken by many organisations.
We cannot dismiss the theory that increased corvid populations have a detrimental effect on small birds until there is clear evidence either way. We would not be undertaking this research if we did not believe that it is urgently needed.
The charity believes that the continuing decline of our songbird population is not all down to modern farming, where over 70% of farmers are in environmental schemes, but is due to the huge increase in a whole suite of mammalian and avian predators over the last forty years.
Research in 2009 by the UEA and the RSPB, focusing on the woodlark, concluded that its 80% decline was mainly caused by predation. Other current research to support the theory that predation is a problem for our small bird populations includes: Dr Chris Bell on sparrowhawk population effects on house sparrows as well as work done by the GWCT in their Loddington project. Also work done for the RSPB by the Bowkers in Wales on Black Grouse.
The Bowker work is used in the RSPB’s publication: ‘The Predation of Wild Birds in the UK’ which states that ‘Further studies that provide clear evidence of whether predators limit populations of their bird prey are needed. Such evidence is best obtained from predator removal experiments.’
Therefore, as part of the charity’s research programme SongBird Survival is commissioning this research, the first ever fully experimental study specifically looking at the effect of corvid predation on farmland songbirds.'
I got this email reply to my request for more information as to their reasons for the research today:
'SongBird Survival, in commissioning the first ever fully experimental scientific research into the effect of magpie and crow predation on songbird populations, is not ignoring other reasons for small bird decline. This is just one of many research projects, on many reasons for small bird decline, undertaken by many organisations.
We cannot dismiss the theory that increased corvid populations have a detrimental effect on small birds until there is clear evidence either way. We would not be undertaking this research if we did not believe that it is urgently needed.
The charity believes that the continuing decline of our songbird population is not all down to modern farming, where over 70% of farmers are in environmental schemes, but is due to the huge increase in a whole suite of mammalian and avian predators over the last forty years.
Research in 2009 by the UEA and the RSPB, focusing on the woodlark, concluded that its 80% decline was mainly caused by predation. Other current research to support the theory that predation is a problem for our small bird populations includes: Dr Chris Bell on sparrowhawk population effects on house sparrows as well as work done by the GWCT in their Loddington project. Also work done for the RSPB by the Bowkers in Wales on Black Grouse.
The Bowker work is used in the RSPB’s publication: ‘The Predation of Wild Birds in the UK’ which states that ‘Further studies that provide clear evidence of whether predators limit populations of their bird prey are needed. Such evidence is best obtained from predator removal experiments.’
Therefore, as part of the charity’s research programme SongBird Survival is commissioning this research, the first ever fully experimental study specifically looking at the effect of corvid predation on farmland songbirds.'
crows in particular get a terrible press for lamb killing; these problems are probably down to one individual that gives the others a bad name. i've seen crows walking about right next to lambs and all they're doing is pecking about for worms and beetles. as for song bird declines; they all disappeared at around or after the advent of organophosphate agricultural chemicals.
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