Richard Klim
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But (highly phallic) scopes still seem to be less prevalent stateside. Lots of talk but little action...
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Are birders sexist? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter aythya_hybrid
- Start date
michaelboustead
Well-known member
Not trying to be glib, but don't most people bird watch alone so to whom are you going to be sexist?
JTweedie
Well-known member
I've never seen men being sexist towards women in all my time of going birding, although I don't generally go out in groups, so maybe I'm not experiencing the group dynamics which could result, i.e. us and them.
Some of the things mentioned here actually apply to older birders vs younger birders. An old chap refused to believe me when I spotted an otter many years ago, insisting that it must have been a mink (even though he didn't see it himself).
This was an older guy distrusting the opinion of someone much younger than him, and I suspect it's the kind of behaviour that some women may experience, but as a guy, it appears not to be out of a sexist motivation.
Some of the things mentioned here actually apply to older birders vs younger birders. An old chap refused to believe me when I spotted an otter many years ago, insisting that it must have been a mink (even though he didn't see it himself).
This was an older guy distrusting the opinion of someone much younger than him, and I suspect it's the kind of behaviour that some women may experience, but as a guy, it appears not to be out of a sexist motivation.
aythya_hybrid
real name Jonathan Dean
That's probably true, but sexism does manifest itself in particular ways among birders. For instance, I find it's fairly common to encounter usually older men loudly and authoritatively imparting knowledge to their long suffering female partners, even if they're not actually that knowledgeable.
Also, being far removed from the upper echelons of "premiership" birding, I'm genuinely curious about the domestic arrangements of some of the big hitters. I figured either they must live in squalor/chaos, or they must have a really traditional domestic arrangement where their partner does all the cooking, cleaning etc while they go out birding.
John o'Sullivan
Well-known member
I agree with Andrew that this is potentially an interesting topic. I've always thought that on average Birding attracts certain personality types, birdwatching other personality types and ornithology another personality range. Twitchers of course that's another story altogether. Of course there are people that move between categories but on average I'm guessing there would be identifiable personality/socio-demographic profiles.
I often wondered how many twitchers have OCPD or Aspergers or other similarly focussed, more usually "male" personality types.
I've just copied this from some randomn website.
OCPD has some of the same symptoms as obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). However, people with OCD have unwanted thoughts, while people with OCPD believe that their thoughts are correct.
People with both OCPD and OCD tend to be high achievers and feel a sense of urgency about their actions. They may become very upset if other people interfere with their rigid routines. They may not be able to express their anger directly. Instead, people with OCPD experience feelings that they consider more appropriate, like anxiety or frustration.
A person with this personality disorder has symptoms of perfectionism that usually begin in early adulthood. This perfectionism may interfere with the person's ability to complete tasks, because their standards are so rigid.
People with this disorder may emotionally withdraw when they are not able to control a situation. This can interfere with their ability to solve problems and form close relationships.
Some of the other signs of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder include:
•
Excess devotion to work (I'd argue in this sub group Twitching)
•
Inability to throw things away, even when the objects have no value
•
Lack of flexibility
•
Lack of generosity
•
Not wanting to allow other people to do things
•
Not willing to show affection
•
Preoccupation with details, rules, and lists
Of course I am not arguing that all twitchers have OCPD or Aspergers but I would guess that the prevalence is higher than in the general
population.
It is likely that sex and gender and class and race and age would play a part in how parts of society are more likely to be drawn towards (or not) the various forms that an interest in birds might take and then having been drawn towards that form how they act within it.
Birders do tend to be drawn from a particular socio-demographic group that probably tend to be on average less sexist/racist than other groupings although I'd postulate that there are regions of the country where sexism would be more likely than others.
The first female birder I ever met was Jane Turner. Jane even as a relative youngster amply demonstrated that females could be very good birders and I think I've treated them the same as blokes since then i.e. who is this birder, are they any good, have they got any useful gen or preferbly a good bird to show me.
I think like lots of birders it's the "are they any good" bit of it that potentially leads to problems with respect to sexism. I'd be interested in hearing from the women birders of their experiences with respect to this appraisal made by birders to see if sex/gender does appear to play a part.
I'd also be interested in an analysis of the make-up of the various forms that an interest in birds take. I haven't seen any research on the subject but I'd bet the results would be interesting.
There are also sexist birders out there. I've met a number of them.
I often wondered how many twitchers have OCPD or Aspergers or other similarly focussed, more usually "male" personality types.
I've just copied this from some randomn website.
OCPD has some of the same symptoms as obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). However, people with OCD have unwanted thoughts, while people with OCPD believe that their thoughts are correct.
People with both OCPD and OCD tend to be high achievers and feel a sense of urgency about their actions. They may become very upset if other people interfere with their rigid routines. They may not be able to express their anger directly. Instead, people with OCPD experience feelings that they consider more appropriate, like anxiety or frustration.
A person with this personality disorder has symptoms of perfectionism that usually begin in early adulthood. This perfectionism may interfere with the person's ability to complete tasks, because their standards are so rigid.
People with this disorder may emotionally withdraw when they are not able to control a situation. This can interfere with their ability to solve problems and form close relationships.
Some of the other signs of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder include:
•
Excess devotion to work (I'd argue in this sub group Twitching)
•
Inability to throw things away, even when the objects have no value
•
Lack of flexibility
•
Lack of generosity
•
Not wanting to allow other people to do things
•
Not willing to show affection
•
Preoccupation with details, rules, and lists
Of course I am not arguing that all twitchers have OCPD or Aspergers but I would guess that the prevalence is higher than in the general
population.
It is likely that sex and gender and class and race and age would play a part in how parts of society are more likely to be drawn towards (or not) the various forms that an interest in birds might take and then having been drawn towards that form how they act within it.
Birders do tend to be drawn from a particular socio-demographic group that probably tend to be on average less sexist/racist than other groupings although I'd postulate that there are regions of the country where sexism would be more likely than others.
The first female birder I ever met was Jane Turner. Jane even as a relative youngster amply demonstrated that females could be very good birders and I think I've treated them the same as blokes since then i.e. who is this birder, are they any good, have they got any useful gen or preferbly a good bird to show me.
I think like lots of birders it's the "are they any good" bit of it that potentially leads to problems with respect to sexism. I'd be interested in hearing from the women birders of their experiences with respect to this appraisal made by birders to see if sex/gender does appear to play a part.
I'd also be interested in an analysis of the make-up of the various forms that an interest in birds take. I haven't seen any research on the subject but I'd bet the results would be interesting.
There are also sexist birders out there. I've met a number of them.
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Xenospiza
Distracted
Please include ringers and local patchers in your analysis of "twitchers": the motives are not (that) different. Actually, they are probably on average more obsessive: a (premier league, hahaha) twitcher could lead a perfectly normal life but for the couple of times a year he has to see a tick!
Anyway, women should be glad that birders are such sexists, otherwise they wouldn't suppress any flatulence in their presence.
John o'Sullivan
Well-known member
Equality does come with a price.
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I keep reading this sentence trying to work out if it's the women or the (male?) birders who are suppressing flatulence. Which is more likely?
"Loud authoritative" men brow-beating "long-suffering" females? There's a couple of stale cliches for you! I suspect you're just seeing what you expect to see. I bird a lot & don't remember ever running into that.
Sure, maybe. Or maybe they just have plenty of money. For my own part, I have very little curiosity about their domestic arrangements.
Adam W
Well-known member
I noticed a much higher percentage of women birders when I was down in Norfolk earlier in the year than I see in my area, I wondered wether the much larger choice of big reserves which bring with them things like toilets and cafe etc had anything to do with it or am I being sexist suggesting that
John o'Sullivan
Well-known member
Only as far as I'm concerned if you consider their choices to be based on inherent inferiority that is sexually determined.
If however you think their choices are inherently inferior and based on their gender then in my world that makes you genderist.
The example you gave could possibly be an example as to how sex/gender affects behaviour.
Just tracked down the other thread, hadn't realised Jane involved in that discussion.
Some quite interesting personality characteristics apparent though reading that thread.
There often are in the world of BF.
If however you think their choices are inherently inferior and based on their gender then in my world that makes you genderist.
The example you gave could possibly be an example as to how sex/gender affects behaviour.
Just tracked down the other thread, hadn't realised Jane involved in that discussion.
Some quite interesting personality characteristics apparent though reading that thread.
There often are in the world of BF.
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aythya_hybrid
real name Jonathan Dean
Friend, I appreciate this topic doesn't interest you but, to be clear, I don't for a minute presume that my admittedly circumstantial and unsystematic observations here in the UK also apply to Nevada (a part of the US I have never visited, although wold like to). Neither do I presume others should share my curiosity about the domestic arrangements of big name twitchers, which I fully concede is an eccentric preoccupation of mine!
To use a further stale cliche, if this thread is not to your liking then why post in it so much?
I noticed a much higher percentage of women birders when I was down in Norfolk earlier in the year than I see in my area, I wondered wether the much larger choice of big reserves which bring with them things like toilets and cafe etc had anything to do with it or am I being sexist suggesting that
Maybe just a touch.
Fair enough. But if you make sexist remarks you have to expect to be called on them. You don't get a free pass just because the target is men, not women.
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Nightranger
Senior Moment
My experience is that it is a personal thing in that conversations away from public forums (in the widest sense but including BF) do sometimes stray in to forbidden areas. Most of us will have had issues with spouses/partners over freedom of movement and how we deal with that. Often this comes out as complaints where it seems unreasonable or self-recrimination where we admit we are obsessed to bird watching colleagues yet we cannot admit it to partners. I cannot deny that I have been involved in jokey conversations of all kinds that were not just sexist but were homophobic too. Yes, to some extents the terminology reflects the position bird watching has but everything else is a reflection of the people profiles involved in the passtime rather than whether the passtime is really sexist. However, if the question was about whether bird watching is PC then it is perhaps a different question and far more important.
ChrisKten
It's true, I quite like Pigeons
They're too busy doing the washing and cooking to reply; maybe later when the ironing is done
(note the smiley; it means that I'm not serious|=)|)All people are sexist, at least groups of each sex are sexist when together. Go to a Pub and listen to a group of men; they'll be plenty of sexist remarks about women. Do the same if there's a group of women together, and the sexist remarks will be about men.
However, listen to the same groups taking about: the French/Germans/Americans/Russians... short people/tall people/people with short hair/no hair... etc.
I've no experience of "birders", but I can see no reason why they should be any different from anyone else.
