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Is all this bird ringing necessary? (1 Viewer)

Unlike entomology and my area of research, malacology, where the only way to identify a species, in many orders, is by dissection and examination of genitalia, ringing / banding / data tagging etc. is a non-destructive tool for the study of the birds. Sanderling families may migrate / stay together on their wintering grounds ( there is some evidence of this from observations of colour ringed birds at Hoylake, Wirral, UK ), Black-tailed Godwit are individually loyal to specific passage / wintering sites, returning year after year ( colour ringing returns once again ), UK Red Knot, once thought to migrate to Greenland / arctic Canada in either one jump, or via Iceland, are now known to gather in huge flocks in Norway before heading off across the Atlantic ( colour ringing and satellite tagging ). All these schemes have produced important data vital for the conservation of populations of species. On a micro scale, increases / decreases in the longevity, productivity, distribution, population density of such species as Blue Tit can only be recorded, scientifically, by ringing data. To deny the scientific importance marking schemes, or even worse, to argue against them on the grounds that it is "upsetting", is to play into the hands of those that see no importance to conserving wild things as they are of the opinion that, as " it doesn't affect them", we can continue to exploit / destroy / pollute with no cost to ourselves.
 
mjh73 said:
I find the idea that ringing is a fun exercise done for purely personal purposes without consideration for the birds is a bit bizarre.

I have volunteered recently on a project in Australia, ringing bushbirds in a national park as part of an investigation into the impact of controlled burns.
Days in the field are bloody hard work in difficult terrain. The gear has to go in on foot into remote gullies, vegetation has to be cleared by hand to enable the mist nets to be set up - which is a challenge in itself in the dense bush - the days are long and you finish the day tired, scratched and often covered in ticks and leeches. Some days we catch little. If the weather is poor (too hot, or wet) we don't even go out (because the birds welfare would be at risk, not ours!).
The field team is supervised by an A class bander, and the care of the birds is paramount. I have spent two weeks with this project (and will be back out again in a couple of months) and while I have been there we have banded dozens of target species without loss, and released hundreds of bycatch, without loss. Nets are checked often, birds are released and processed quickly and if there is any concern about a bird it is released rather than put at risk. I recall one Brown Thornbill that I was about to process appearing crook so instead of processing we let the bird sit and rest in a shrub next to the processing site until it got itself straight and flew off. The concern of all of us on the team was palpable - we care about the birds and we were all stressed about the welfare of this bird. Generally though the birds were apparently untroubled after processing and it wasn't uncommon for birds to sit quite happily in our hands for a brief time during recovery before flying back into the bush. These were not highly stressed birds itchy to get away from a big scary predator.

So, with all that said, why did I volunteer to get involved? Because the project needed people to help it, and I thought it was a worthwhile investigation. Because I enjoy the science of ornithology and being in the bush generally as an antidote to my day job driving a desk. Because I wanted to learn something. Because I wanted to meet like minded people. So, yes, I had selfish reasons for being there too, but NEVER would I let that supercede my concern for the birds.

The question has been asked "What do we have to find out about [species X] that we don't already know?". This I also find a bizarre suggestion. Populations and distributions are not static, they are dynamic and can be rapidly so. Past information can tell us about the state of populations ONLY at the time of sampling. Ongoing monitoring can tell us about trends and changes. But if we don't monitor going forward then we might fail to detect developing trends that might be of concern, and we might miss the opportunity to take prudent conservation action in time. Even what we define today as common species can rapidly decline as we have seen time and time again. Good luck getting funding to support conservation action without robust scientific data that demonstrates there is a problem.

There needs to be an appreciation that sometimes science has to be carried out with an impact on individuals, but ultimately for the greater good of the population. We can see from the life histories of many birds species that these same decisions get taken by the birds themselves.
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chris butterworth said:
Unlike entomology and my area of research, malacology, where the only way to identify a species, in many orders, is by dissection and examination of genitalia, ringing / banding / data tagging etc. is a non-destructive tool for the study of the birds. Sanderling families may migrate / stay together on their wintering grounds ( there is some evidence of this from observations of colour ringed birds at Hoylake, Wirral, UK ), Black-tailed Godwit are individually loyal to specific passage / wintering sites, returning year after year ( colour ringing returns once again ), UK Red Knot, once thought to migrate to Greenland / arctic Canada in either one jump, or via Iceland, are now known to gather in huge flocks in Norway before heading off across the Atlantic ( colour ringing and satellite tagging ). All these schemes have produced important data vital for the conservation of populations of species. On a micro scale, increases / decreases in the longevity, productivity, distribution, population density of such species as Blue Tit can only be recorded, scientifically, by ringing data. To deny the scientific importance marking schemes, or even worse, to argue against them on the grounds that it is "upsetting", is to play into the hands of those that see no importance to conserving wild things as they are of the opinion that, as " it doesn't affect them", we can continue to exploit / destroy / pollute with no cost to ourselves.
Click to expand...

2 posts which capture the importance of scientific evaluation over the way a lot of people see things emotionally. Thank you guys for showing the greater picture, which if we ignore, we are doing the birds a far greater disservice than complaining about excessive ringing or banding. I am not a ringer, but I am interested in the conservation of natural environment, particularly key migration stop overs. Without ringing, it is very difficult to assess which areas need to be prioritised with a view to conservation. Hard records through ringing/banding show where the birds migarate through and not just where birds have been recorded. Like most things in life the vast majority involved in something like ringing, especially when it means getting up before dawn, in often uncomfortable conditions, are dedicated to ornithology/conservation and not in it for the thrill factor. It is also good for people to question the whys and wherefores, so these two posts in particular put the argument to sleep. Ringers and banders are doing an essential job, that is ongoing, because things are constantly in flux.
 
pratincol said:
If the neck collar wasn't tight it would slip down the neck.The collars I saw looked very tight and in one fixed position,near the top of the neck
I only noticed them for the first time last year and wondered what sort of selfish person would impose that on an innocent bird?
So the birds cannot preen,clean or scratch the area underneath the band.
As for your daft comment about squashing insects that would be done accidentally.
Ringers carry out their actions deliberately.
And yes humans do wear all sorts of adornments-out of choice.
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Have you proof that they can't preen, scratch etc. I read quite a few collars on geese each year and send the data to the ringing schemes and in all the time I have done this I've never seen a goose affected by the collar, all able to raise broods, feed etc no differently to the geese with no collars. You seem to love making wild statements without any knowledge about the subject! And btw none of the neck collars I have seen are tight
 
pratincol said:
Birdgirl- Why do they put those ring necks on.Surely that is cruel to the birds?I saw them last year for the first time and wondered what is going on in the heads of those who impose such things on innocent creatures.
As for your anecdote about wings being damaged when putting on tags-words fail me.
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I don't agree with it either , Pratincol. I think the neck collars are used for birders or ornithologists being able to read in the field. It must make preening much harder for the bird , but what worries me most is the process of it being put on. Surely , the ringers would have to pin down the head of the swan , which must be particularly distressing for the swan , and possibly dangerouse - what if the collar was put on too tight by accident and effected the birds breathing? All the neck collars I have seen (pictures on ringing sights e.g.) look like they are either too tight (Black Swans particularly) or too lose , which must be annoying for the bird. I don't know how Swans are ringed with normal leg rings , but I have seen other waterfowl like Canada Geese being leg ringed and I would imagine that it is much less distressing (and quicker) than having a tight collar being put around your neck.

Wing tags which are fitted to the feathers seem fine , providing that the tags don't effect the flight of that species. However because the feathers moult the tag goes off so sometimes the tag is punctured through part of the wing. This must be painful to the bird , but it seems quite accepted now with less controversy than with neck collars , so perhaps I'm missing something , it doesn't hurt the birds much or effect flight?

I don't mean to rant on , but I think bird welfare should be important when they are being tagged/ringed , as you seem to agree , Pratincol. I have never actually seen these ringing techniques done , so I am just writing this from what I have saw and speculating the possible risks so can anyone give me any proven info on collar ringing/ wing tagging and nasal saddles , and the effect it has on birds and how they are fitted? Thanks.
 
Emm, pardon my ignorance but don't wing tags go through the wing ?
If they were attached to a feather they would be lost at moult. As birds of prey are tagged as fledglings, the tag would be left in the nest.

Neck rings (well all the ones I have seen) are loose fitting and sit at the base of the neck but are free to move up and down thereby facilitating preening. They make recording simpler, rather than having to catch the goose/swan, etc. you can read its identity at a distance.

I'm surprised that so many people are anti-ringing. IMHuO the data gathered shows the genuine benefits to the species/population.

If you are genuinely concerned, why not contact your local ringing group and ask to accompany them one morning (or more, your choice) ? It's great that people are passionate about animal welfare but getting the full facts would be beneficial, I think you would agree.
A practical demonstration of the care and empathy shown by ringers would be of value.
 
Surely the whole point of any ringing/tagging,leg,neck,wing or whatever is to be able to find out information about the birds natural habits. If any of the ringing methods affected the birds ability to act exactly as normal then it would be totally pointless.
 
Birdgirl42 said:
I don't know how Swans are ringed with normal leg rings , but I have seen other waterfowl like Canada Geese being leg ringed and I would imagine that it is much less distressing (and quicker) than having a tight collar being put around your neck.
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Think of neck collars as if they were your watch strap or a bracelet. Loose enough not to slip over your hand, but not so tight it cuts off circulation. Neck collars are designed to fit outside the feathers, not compress them, which means they can be up to 8 mm wider in diameter than the actual neck. I won't deny that for a short period of time the bird will notice the collar but, as with a wrist watch, the feel of it being worn soon disappears.

Birdgirl42 said:
Wing tags which are fitted to the feathers seem fine , providing that the tags don't effect the flight of that species. However because the feathers moult the tag goes off so sometimes the tag is punctured through part of the wing. This must be painful to the bird , but it seems quite accepted now with less controversy than with neck collars , so perhaps I'm missing something , it doesn't hurt the birds much or effect flight?

I don't mean to rant on , but I think bird welfare should be important when they are being tagged/ringed , as you seem to agree , Pratincol. I have never actually seen these ringing techniques done , so I am just writing this from what I have saw and speculating the possible risks so can anyone give me any proven info on collar ringing/ wing tagging and nasal saddles , and the effect it has on birds and how they are fitted? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Pagatial tags ( wing tags ) are fitted through the skin on the leading edge of wing, in much the same way as human earlobes are pierced. Yet again, I cannot claim the birds do not feel some discomfort initially ( much as humans do after a piercing ) but, for birds such as large raptors ( and pagatial tags are almost exclusive to raptor study ) that are invariably seen in flight, with their legs tucked into the feathers, it is the only way to identify individuals in the fiield, at present.

Neck collars, pagatial tags, nasal saddles, geolocators are all relatively recent introductions and were all carefully designed before being used in the field. If you are still unsure about the value of wing tagging and the "good" of the bird then check out the history of the reintroduction of California Condor back into the wild.
 
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In SW Spain' they used to put neck collars on Red-knobbed Coot. This was great coz in the winter it was simple to identify them. Also Common Coot are shot in Spain, but RKC are not allowed to be shot, so it was done to prevent the much rarer species falling prey to the guns. I confess I haven't seen this for many years. But it was used as a simple but effective conservation tool.
 
I once calculated that in terms of the ratio of the weight of a bird (eg a swallow) to the weight of the ring around its leg, the equivalent for a human would be a 2kg weight (eg a bag of sugar) strapped to the leg. Then you have to say how you would fare in making a journey of around 5000 miles, unaided, with this appendage. I am also convinced that radio transmitters attached to larger birds seriously affect their flying and navigation ability. I was once following a radio tracking of an Osprey which encountered a storm, contact was lost and the bird presumed perished. But how much was the bird's survival affected by the presence of the transmitter on its back?
 
alanhill said:
I once calculated that in terms of the ratio of the weight of a bird (eg a swallow) to the weight of the ring around its leg, the equivalent for a human would be a 2kg weight (eg a bag of sugar) strapped to the leg.
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Not sure where your weights came from but I have looked up one random species to compare...........

So, a greenfinch weighs in at approximately 32g.
When rung it receives a B ring which weighs 0.07g - that's 0.22% of its body mass which is equivalent to a 90kg human carrying 200g around - coincidentally the weight of my mobile phone
 
Mike C said:
Not sure where your weights came from but I have looked up one random species to compare...........

So, a greenfinch weighs in at approximately 32g.
When rung it receives a B ring which weighs 0.07g - that's 0.22% of its body mass which is equivalent to a 90kg human carrying 200g around - coincidentally the weight of my mobile phone
Click to expand...

Ah, at least Imperial to metric, an introduction for the mathematically challenged, didn't rear its head again!;);)
MJB
 
Why choose a greenfinch - a relatively large bird, and not a major migrant? Take an adult swallow, average weight 18g (juveniles would weigh less). A ring for a swallow would be 0.2g. Thus one-ninetieth the weight of the bird. Average male (human) adult, 80kg; equivalent 'tag' = 0.9kg. Then travel (maybe walk not fly)10,000km (6000 miles) in often hazardous conditions with a weight of 0.9kg strapped to your leg. I wouldn't fancy it.
(Figures taken from Wikipedia and Office for National Statistics)
 
There's an awful lot of rather unscientific speculation and anecdotal figures on this thread, to many for this argument to ever go anywhere.
What's most interesting to me is the 'all of this' part of the title, bird ringing is widely publicised, usually based on it's achievements and merits and thus we all know about it? I would be careful not to confuse the 'coverage' bird ringing/banding receives within our science with actual number of birds wearing rings.
 
I was watching a huge flock of Greylag Geese the other day.
Several were sporting those tight looking 'chokers' imposed on their necks in the name of scientific research.
I had my scope with me and looking at the neck bands closely they did indeed, look tight and uncomfortable.
If they were not fastened hard they would of course slide down their necks.
As I was looking a non bird watching couple passed by.
Unprovoked, they asked me what on earth the orange bands were for.I explained that bird ringers found it necessary to do this for research purposes.They wondered themselves, why this was called for bearing in mind there are thousands of these geese around.
From a public perception point of view it was not good public relations for the birding world.
 
pratincol said:
I was watching a huge flock of Greylag Geese the other day. Several were sporting those tight looking 'chokers' imposed on their necks in the name of scientific research.

From a public perception point of view it was not good public relations for the birding world.
Click to expand...

Clearly they were not chokers, or wildfowl fitted with neck collars would be dying rather than migrating back and fro thousands of kilometres, seemingly unimpeded comparing with non-ringed companions. Rather than posting on here time and again that you think they are tight and restrictive, why not attend a ringing session where you will actually see the reality, or ask the WWT who also clearly know a thing or two about this.

And as for public relations, I would say ringing overall is a very positive way to introduce the wider public tot he birding world. I can think of several ringing observatories where ringing operations are a showpiece to the public, amazed persons watching the birds at close range and hearing the incredible migrations, etc, that the tiny bird being shown to them is liekly to be embarking upon.
 
pratincol said:
Several were sporting those tight looking 'chokers' imposed on their necks in the name of scientific research.
Click to expand...

The important word is "looking". No matter how many people tell you differently you will continue to force your (flawed) perception upon the reality. Utilising words such as "imposed" and phrases like the rather smug and sneering "in the name of" just highlight your deliberate refusal to accept that there are experienced people that probably have a greater and deeper understanding of the situation than yourself.
pratincol said:
I had my scope with me and looking at the neck bands closely they did indeed, look tight and uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

Yet again, "look tight and uncomfortable". Are they, in fact, tight and uncomfortable, or are you imposing your thoughts on the reality?
pratincol said:
If they were not fastened hard they would of course slide down their necks.
Click to expand...

(deep sigh!) Neck collars DO slide up - and down - the necks of birds. Just because you haven't seen them zooming up and down like the lifts on Blackpool Tower doesn't mean they don't.
pratincol said:
They wondered themselves, why this was called for bearing in mind there are thousands of these geese around.
From a public perception point of view it was not good public relations for the birding world.
Click to expand...

Right, Greylag Geese. The majority, in the UK, are from released stock. The numbers are rising, year on year. 40 years ago, when there were far fewer birds, sub-populations, moult migration stop-offs and moulting areas werefewer but, with the increase in numbers these have become far more complex and, therefore, less well known. Do East Anglian birds still all go to Yorkshire, or do some use the Wash > NW England flyway? Where do the Midlands population moult? If you can answer these, and many other questions, without data from marking schemes then you would be better calling yourself Gunga Din.
As for "public perception". Providing false, or inaccurate data to the public ( as per Countryside Alliance, Save Our Songbirds, You Forgot About The Birds and the mass of unscientific crap about "seagulls" and raptors ) only serves to drive a wedge between conservation and the public.
 
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As I say Chris the non birdwatching couple were as nonplussed and unimpressed as myself by the neckbands/chokers/whatever you would like to call them,imposed on the Greylags as myself.
I did try to explain some of the reasons why ringers deem it necessary to put these things round their necks but that left them equally unconvinced as well.
I get the impression ringers could invent any old excuse to ring whatever group of birds they like.If there isn't a pressing need I guess they would make one up anyway.
 
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