Which Darters? (1 Viewer)

Adrian_P · Sep 17, 2007

Yes, this website is excellent. If you go back a level or two to http://www.brocross.com/dfly/dfspec.htm then you will find comparisons of all the species that have been mentioned here.

All of Matt's photos are Common Darters; numbers 1-3 & 5 are females (some starting to age to a rather male-like colouration), while 4 is a male. The way to sex them is by the anal appendages at the end of the abdomen: in Darters and related species males have two strong 'claspers' that curve gently inwards then run parallel to the centre line, while females have two weak spine-like structures either side of a central bump.

The most commonly encountered Darters are Common Darter, Ruddy Darter and Black Darter, though this is rather local in central and eastern England. Yellow-winged Darter is a rare migrant that most people are unlikely to see, except perhaps during 'influx years', the most notable recent one being 1995 (though 2006 wasn't bad). Red-veined Darter used to be even rarer, but is now becoming noticeably more frequent, probably as a result of global warming. They tend to hang out on shallow waters near the coast or at inland gravel pits, and active observers might just come across them from time to time. There were indeed several records from Lincolnshire (amongst other places) last year.

Adrian

Peewit · Sep 17, 2007

Hi Matt/Adrian

Thanks you for all of your link information here, and will use the pictures to assist here too. Great to assist in the field work, and for any outdoor sightings

The links with the pictures are great to show the differences between each species. I still find it hard to see the difference between the Common and the Ruddy Darter as it is, let alone the gender?. Will get the hang of it though soon enough. Just keep the practice going

Of course all the other interesting finds count too.

Regards
Kathy

Wombat1 · Sep 17, 2007

NOw I feel really stupid! I had ImageResizer all along, I tried to run the downloaded file and it told me I already had it. So easy, right click, select, makes copy (but it took a while to find them at the end of my pics!).

This is getting more interesting! I really haven't a clue where I got the mahogany red pterostigma from, perhaps another website? :-O

BUT, the British Dragonfly Society has pics of the Red-veined darter. The male has yellow at the base of the wings, the juvenile male does have yellow panels on it's side, and looks very much like the female except it has a single black line along the lower side of the abdomen whereas the female has two. Note what it says about the female wings

"The wing veins are yellow at the costa, leading edge and base."

http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/syfon.html

The Vagrant Darter also has similarities! (It also has dark pterostigma and red viens)

http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/syvul.html

This is the list of Linconshire Darters, no Vagrant Darter mentioned but that doesn't really mean a lot. I have yet to see a Black Darter.

http://www.lincstrust.org.uk/species/dragonfly_damselfly/index.php

Note that the Yellow-winged Darter has been recorded on the Wash, I'm not so far from there.

I still think they interbreed!

I'm uploading some pics, the male on the broom handle is the same one as the first pic I posted. The male viewed from the rear was from last year, note there are no definite yellow stripes on the legs as the Common Darter has, also this one has a clubbed tail. The female in the air from underneath shows yellow pterostigma and yellow leading edge, as well as yellow at the base of wings. The female on the bamboo cane (this year) shows the same, and the double black lines at the sides of the abdomen. The female on the thin stick from last year, not the best of pics but enlarged it shows the blue at the back edge of the eye

Nikon Kid · Sep 17, 2007

Ho Well hear we go Common Darters All I think

Wombat1 · Sep 17, 2007

Come to think of it, looking at my pic of the male on the broom handle from underneath the pterostigma does look more orangey, maybe it was reflecting the sun in a strange way from the top?

For those who want a better look at the Ruddy Darter I will upload my pics of that.

wint · Sep 17, 2007

Wombat1 said:
I'm uploading some pics, the male on the broom handle is the same one as the first pic I posted. The male viewed from the rear was from last year, note there are no definite yellow stripes on the legs as the Common Darter has, also this one has a clubbed tail. The female in the air from underneath shows yellow pterostigma and yellow leading edge, as well as yellow at the base of wings. The female on the bamboo cane (this year) shows the same, and the double black lines at the sides of the abdomen. The female on the thin stick from last year, not the best of pics but enlarged it shows the blue at the back edge of the eye

Hi again Wombat1

These comments are from someone who has never seen Vagrant or Yellow-winged darters (but quite a lot of Red-veined - mainly in Spain)!

If we label your pics 1-5 starting at the left then 1 and 3-5 are Common Darters.

The pattern on the sides of the thorax fit Common Darter. Where we can see the frons the black does not (appear to) extend down the sides. The legs are black with a yellow stripe (even #3). The vulvar spine on #4 and #5 is right for Common (it is not obvious in Red-veined).

I also think that #2 is Common Darter although I wouldn't bet my house on it! I would expect there to be larger saffron bases on the hindwing if it was Red-veined.

I've attached a pic of a Common Darter showing pale pterostigmas and some yellow venation.

HTH

dbradnum · Sep 17, 2007

Wombat1 said:
This is the list of Linconshire Darters, no Vagrant Darter mentioned but that doesn't really mean a lot.

Sorry, but I think it does!

Of the species you've been suggesting, Red-veined is pretty rare in the UK, Yellow-ringed is very rare, and I believe Vagrant Darter is rarer still. You should only suggest something this scarce if there's really solid evidence to do so, and to rule out the regular, common species.... which I don't think you can here.

Adding these rare species into the equation does little more than cloud the issue. Though I'm by no means an expert, I think these are all Common Darters....

Wombat1 · Sep 17, 2007

Thank you for helping clear this up for me! It has been bugging me for some time, I gather the Ruddy Darter then is correct.

I apologise to Matt if I appear to have hijacked his thread, but thought it might be relevant to anyone who is also confused about these.

I'm also sorry dbradnum if I failed to word my comment correctly, what I really meant is that we do not know if the site with Lincolnshire Darters has been updated in the last 10 years, and things do change. You state that "You should only suggest something this scarce if there's really solid evidence to do so", I had thought that this site gave evidence of these Darters here, and as others have mentioned there are influxes in some years such as last year. I do also live in an area which is very suitable for these.

However, point taken, the Common Darter does seem to vary a great deal and I am far from an expert, I can only go on the evidence I see which is not always the best to go on.

Hi again wint, and thank you for your help. I would love to see a pic of a Red-veined Darter, did you manage to take any while in Spain?

Peewit · Sep 17, 2007

matt green said:
Found masses of these today, all sunning together in the sun on the board walks at Holkham nature reserve in north Norfolk.

First I thought I had three seperate species, but now of the opinion that some of the males may have been simply more red than the others?

Matt

hi Matt

Going back to your original pictures, it is good that your species have been ID'd now.

So now you know what they are now, and they are not all different species after all.

Great learning about darters here. :t:

Regards
Kathy

matt green · Sep 17, 2007

Wombat1 said:
I apologise to Matt if I appear to have hijacked his thread, but thought it might be relevant to anyone who is also confused about these.

Absolutely none needed, I think these threads often turn out better and more informative when there is some doubt about a certain aspect of identification as it allows a more indepth discussion by those with more experiance than myself, and it also gives me pleasure to ask questions that benefit not just myself ..but others also.

A very interesting thread and thanks all for the input:t:

Matt

rob lee · Sep 17, 2007

Hi all, nice to see people trying to learn about these excellent insects.
To try & clarify things a bit i have attached the folowing pics all of male Darters.
1. Common Darter, yellow stripes down the legs, sometimes hard to see, dark/black pterostigma & orangey red abdomen & with an obvious double stripe on the sides of the thorax.
2. Ruddy Darter, all black legs, similar coloured pterostigma to Common, deeper red (hence name) & typically pump handle shaped abdomen. Thorax sides lack the double stripes. Note this male is not yet fully mature & still showing hints of yellow on the abdomen.
3. Red-veined Darter, abdomen as red as Ruddy with obvious red wing veins, amber pterostigma & blue base to eyes.
4. Yellow-winged Darter, amber/reddish pterostigma with obvious extensive yellow to wingbases (particularly hindwing) All 3 previous species can show resticted yellow/amber at wing base but nothing like this species.

Surreybirder · Sep 18, 2007

Nice photos, Rob. Where did you take them? (no vagrant darter?!)
Ken

Adey Baker · Sep 18, 2007

A bit late in coming to this thread but this thread here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=39267 has lots of pointers towards ID-ing these species and any more photos that will help with any species ID are welcome on it!

Actually, Matt's first few words in the first post of the thread give the clue to what they are - at least 'Common Darters' do live up to their name unlike 'Common Hawker' which is absent from quite large areas of the country!

wint · Sep 18, 2007

Wombat1 said:
Hi again wint, and thank you for your help. I would love to see a pic of a Red-veined Darter, did you manage to take any while in Spain?

Ironically, the only pics I have of Red-veined Darter are of the five I've found in Hampshire - record shots with a cheap camera

as in the image earlier in the thread.

Some shots I've found (via google images - http://tinyurl.com/ysepqw ) that I like are

http://www.fugleognatur.dk/english/gallery_uk.asp?mode=ShowLarge&ID=22805
(where the pterostigma look reddish)

and

http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/galleries/macro-italy_other_places.htm#003079

I think one point that comes out of this thread is that colours change over time in a dragonfly's life. Also, colours appear different at different angles and in different lighting conditions and are perceived differently by different people.
Ken and I call the colour of the red-veined's pterostigma yellow, Rob describes it as amber, Steve Dudley's book has it as pale brown, other books as 'pale' - and from the pics I've seen on the web all the statements are true! However, the "thick black border" around the pterostigma is rather different to that surrounding the pterostigma of Common Darter and is a more permanent feature than its colour.

HTH

Wombat1 · Sep 18, 2007

Thanks for those links wint, and I agree 100% with what you say about age and perceptions. Interesting too to see that the Red-veined Darters on this link show well-defined yellow patches on the side of the thorax of the male which by the colouring looks to be very mature.

http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/galleries/macro-italy_other_places.htm#003079

I also noted that the blue part of the eye was only a small area at the bottom back edge of the male's eye (this shows on the female I posted on the thin stick), the top having aged to a dark red-brown with the rest a similar but lighter colour. This leads me to wonder if there are variations as to the amount of blue, as some of the young specimens do seem to have very pale blue at the base of the eye but that might be expected on emergence rather like a newborn babies eyes which don't develop colour until later. Whether this turns to a deeper blue, or first goes green then blue is another question. It is stated that the eyes do turn blue with maturity.

Another feature which I haven't noticed in the Common Darter is the clubbed shape of the abdomen tail end, mine definitely has that.

rob lee · Sep 18, 2007

Surreybirder said:
Nice photos, Rob. Where did you take them? (no vagrant darter?!)
Ken

Thanks Ken, they were all taken here in Norfolk. The Red-veined & Yellow-winged were within a few miles of my house last year. Red-veins present at the same site this year too. Still waiting for a Vagrant ! Not enough time to check the frons on every Sympetrum !!!

Wombat, the top of the eyes on Darters darken with age becoming a deeper brown. It seems that it possibly becomes more extensive on R.V.Darters (& other species too ?) as they mature, although this could just be individual variation. Attached is a pic of an immature male R.V. taken in Spain this April showing extensive blue.

Surreybirder · Sep 19, 2007

rob lee said:
Thanks Ken, they were all taken here in Norfolk. The Red-veined & Yellow-winged were within a few miles of my house last year. Red-veins present at the same site this year too. Still waiting for a Vagrant ! Not enough time to check the frons on every Sympetrum !!!

Keep hoping!

Wombat1 · Sep 19, 2007

Thanks rob lee, I don't know about anyone else but I keep looking at these things and it hurts the head. :'D I looked at the brocross site, there is a pic of a male Red-veined which has a very small amount of blue at the back edge of the eye.

http://www.brocross.com/dfly/species/fonsco.htm

I'm 'almost' sure I can see the beginnings of blue at the back edge of my male at some angles.

Yesterday I got a pic of what I thought to be a female Common Darter which flew onto the wall below a male Migrant Hawker, I got them in one pic. Looking at the female Ruddy Darter on the Brocross site I see little difference! :-C I do remember reading about several minor differences between species, one of them being the back of the eyes being nearly in a staight line in some, curving inwards on others. Where that was I don't remember. It seems we really need to have one in hand unless they are obvious for one reason or another. :smoke:

This is the one from yesterday, the Migrant Hawker was just above but getting shaded when this landed.

Brian Stone · Sep 19, 2007

Clear pale stripes on the legs mark this out as a Common Darter - a mature female. Ruddy has solid black legs.

Wombat1 · Sep 19, 2007

Thanks for the reminder Brian, now you see how pickled my brain is becoming! I knew of the black legs and had noticed the yellow stripes, but in the confusion that followed it all turned to jelly! :-O

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