Crested vs Thekla Lark - playing the odds (1 Viewer)

It's moments like this when I question the wisdom of starting a thread like this since I now risk a unique double by revealing my feet are of clay whilst also managing to get a load of egg on my face! Then again I did start the thread with a view to clarify my own 'take' on this notorious pair!
Re Stephen's photos - Here goes:-
Image 1– umm …bill seems short, but shape a bit more Crested like. Very bland looking face/super. But looks whitish below with distinct streaks .. one of those birds where signals seem mixed so a reluctant CRESTED
Image 2 – due to the angle, not an awful lot to see here, but super looks a bit bland and that bill looks, as far as I can judge, more like Crested’s. A slightly ‘wobbly’ CRESTED
Image 3 - Thekla bill, smooth line to crest from lores, blotchy chest slightly ‘dumpier’ & greyish looking, bolder cheeks; nice lichen-y rock! THEKLA
Image 4– the bill look short for Crested; gut reaction says THEKLA
Image 5 – the bill says Crested, crest seems to rise above the eye, sandyish, longer more diffuse super, looks lightly marked below, bland cheeks perhaps longer primary tip - CRESTED
Image 6 - looks a bit worse for wear; blotchy chest, whiter bolder super both say Thekla. Crest looks superficially like Crested but I suspect it’s been whipped up by a breeze. Bill shape a bit “twixt & tween” but more akin our mountain friend so a THEKLA
Image 7 -another looking a bit worse for wear; not a very blotchy chest, bolder super, crest raising from behind eye. Bill looks shortish,but very evenly curved above. Ploughed field. This is one of those birds where signals seem mixed. I’d err on the side of CRESTED

Funny John, I bottled it too. I had 3,4 and 6 as Thekla, 3 being the one I was actually almost confident of!

Motmot said:

Could we see the other shots of this bird? Theklas can also be found at La Mata afaik

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Here 'tiz - not the best shot but clear enough for an ID I suppose - now on tenterhooks in case it just MIGHT be a Thekla.....:eek!:

3, 4 and 6 are Theklas, so your theory and logic prove correct. 3 is the "classic thekla" and so easier to identify, and although sat on a rock, it was actually in the middle of the steppe, and nowhere near high stony ground. You can see from just these few images how difficult they are to identify, made much worse when the bird refuses to sit still, or side on when in the field to enable the features to be seen clearly. I would love to see some work done on the DNA of both to see how much interbreeding actually occurs, i am sure there must be more than people would imagine. This appears to be one of the occasions when sceptics of bird identification via photos are proven wrong.

Stephen Fletcher said:

3, 4 and 6 are Theklas, so your theory and logic prove correct. 3 is the "classic thekla" and so easier to identify, and although sat on a rock, it was actually in the middle of the steppe, and nowhere near high stony ground. You can see from just these few images how difficult they are to identify, made much worse when the bird refuses to sit still, or side on when in the field to enable the features to be seen clearly. I would love to see some work done on the DNA of both to see how much interbreeding actually occurs, i am sure there must be more than people would imagine. This appears to be one of the occasions when sceptics of bird identification via photos are proven wrong.

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Phew, Stephen, do I get a certificate? Like Jane, and as you suggest, I too thought No3 was the 'easy' Thekla out of the bunch. No5 was, I thought, the easier of the Cresteds. Mustn't get too big 'eaded as I think I might have to revisit Mark's lark now that he's posted another photo! To be honest this thread has reminded me that I must spend more time looking at larks when I'm next in Spain.

I absolutely agree that it'd be interesting to see some DNA work on Thekla/Cresteds in Spain. I too incline towards the idea that they may interbreed more often than is curently accepted. I wonder whether it's a situation like that found with Darwin's finches where species boundaries are fairly 'plastic' according to varying environmental conditions,

Really good thread! Useful info, useful images, nobody insulting anyone else. Might just spend more time looking at larks, with id table at hand of course.
(and how great it is that Skylarks are singing again!)

Mark Etheridge said:

Here 'tiz - not the best shot but clear enough for an ID I suppose - now on tenterhooks in case it just MIGHT be a Thekla.....:eek!:

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I'd be very surprised if this bird is a Crested. The lower mandible looks slightly convex, the upperparts look fairly dark grey-brown, wings without any evident rufous, plus very dark and neat breast spots on a whitish ground. Even the barely visible 1st primary appears as long as the primary coverts if not a bit longer. I know Cresteds are very variable, but if this is one...:eek!:

The three ibercaja pages about Galerida larks from NE Spain

http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/300a_IdentificationG_cristata-G_theklae.pdf
http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/299_CrestedLarkGcristata.pdf
http://www.ibercajalav.net/img/300_TheklaLarkGtheklae.pdf

And two examples of well visible 1st primaries:

Thekla
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pm4keYBnz...600-h/IMG_1999+[Resolucion+de+Escritorio].JPG

Crested
http://www.avesibericas.es/images/top15.jpg

Well, I must admit that, despite its colouration (often scewed in photos) I took Mark's first shot to be a Crested since, despite a difficult angle, the lower manible seemed straight and I rather assumed the bill was a bit foreshortened. The second shot, however, as it is in profile gives a much better idea of bill shape .... which now looks to me right for Thekla. Other plumage points now kinda fall in line so I think that's what it is - perhaps I had better ammend my notes to say bill shape should be judged in profile!

John Cantelo said:

Well, I must admit that, despite its colouration (often scewed in photos) I took Mark's first shot to be a Crested since, despite a difficult angle, the lower manible seemed straight and I rather assumed the bill was a bit foreshortened. The second shot, however, as it is in profile gives a much better idea of bill shape .... which now looks to me right for Thekla. Other plumage points now kinda fall in line so I think that's what it is - perhaps I had better ammend my notes to say bill shape should be judged in profile!

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.... and I must amend my records to show that I've seen a Thekla :-O

I had assumed in my ignorance that Theklas were unlikely in that area, so I hadn't even considered it, but that's the power of BirdForum for you! So that's a lifer identified 8 months after actually seeing it - I wonder what the longest time interval between sighting and identification is?