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"American" House Sparrow (1 Viewer)

B

breffni

Well-known member
In a recent trip to Boston I noticed that the house sparrows seemed significantly bigger than the variety around my house (in ireland) and that their plumabe seemed distinctly warmer. After 100 years of seperation they are undoubtedly starting to split and presumably adapt to local conditions but has anybody ever assessed the degree of genetic seperation? Also, if they had not colonised the intense urban inner city areas in the US, what species would have taken this niche? None?
 

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breffni said:
In a recent trip to Boston I noticed that the house sparrows seemed significantly bigger than the variety around my house (in ireland) and that their plumabe seemed distinctly warmer. After 100 years of seperation they are undoubtedly starting to split and presumably adapt to local conditions but has anybody ever assessed the degree of genetic seperation?
Click to expand...

That will be the subspecies Passer domesticus mcdonaldsii ;)


Cheers,
Bob.
 
breffni said:
... Also, if they had not colonised the intense urban inner city areas in the US, what species would have taken this niche? None?
Click to expand...

My guess is the House Finch, a native of the western United States and Canada that has been spreading quite successfully on it's own to the East, including developed areas. It's a tough little bird that makes a good living at urban and suburban feeders.

Cheers,
Robert / Seattle
 
liverpool_bob said:
That will be the subspecies Passer domesticus mcdonaldsii ;)

Cheers,
Bob.
Click to expand...

There's more than a grain of truth to that, Bob. I've seen this species in arid Arizona appearing much leaner and smaller than in the urban north. Seems local conditions can at least affect the physical development of individuals, if not active speciation, over a mere hundred years.

Robert / Seattle
 
Robert / Seattle said:
My guess is the House Finch, a native of the western United States and Canada that has been spreading quite successfully on it's own to the East, including developed areas. It's a tough little bird that makes a good living at urban and suburban feeders.

Cheers,
Robert / Seattle
Click to expand...

Hi Robert,

I agree it is a good candidate, but I have read that House Finches were introduced by humans in the Eastern United States in the 1950s. For example, my Pete Dunne book refers to "a very successful period of accidental introduction and colonization". Not sure about the circumstances.

Best,
Jim
 
J. Moore said:
Hi Robert,

I agree it is a good candidate, but I have read that House Finches were introduced by humans in the Eastern United States in the 1950s. For example, my Pete Dunne book refers to "a very successful period of accidental introduction and colonization". Not sure about the circumstances.

Best,
Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

Thanks for the clarification (still early here; the coffee had yet to kick in). Now, just why do you suppose someone would introduce this Western bird to the east?

Cheers,
Robert
 
bobthebirder said:
Evolution after only 100 years? On that basis we would be a completely different species from the hominids that fought the crusades!
Click to expand...
The factors governing the speed of evolution are:
- number of generations
- environmental selective pressure
- physical seperation
House sparrows have gone through 100 or so generations, are under intense selective pressure because of the radical differences between tha american and european environments, and are physically seperated by the atlantic ocean. The number of generations since the crusaders is more like 30 and the other two criteria do not apply, but if you took one group of homo sapiens and put them in the arctic, and took another group and put them on a tropical island and waited 100 generations, you would certainly see some significant physical differences between the two...
 
Robert / Seattle said:
Jim,

Thanks for the clarification (still early here; the coffee had yet to kick in). Now, just why do you suppose someone would introduce this Western bird to the east?

Cheers,
Robert
Click to expand...

The House Finch has also been successfully introduced to the Hawaian Islands in post-European colonization times and it obviously adapts well to modern suburban settings (where it holds its own against the House Sparrow, at least in my backyard). It's much less competitive in purely urban environments, however, and it's anybody's guess how it would do in these places absent the House Sparrow.

House Sparrows--along with that other long-term human associate, the European Starling--is in steep decline in the UK (there have been lots of references to this on BF over the years). I don't know how thoroughly the causes for the decline are understood, but I think most speculation has centered on recent changes of one sort or another in the human/sparrow interface. Maybe in the fullness of time similar changes will induce a similar decline in the North American House Sparrow population, giving our native species another shot at filling the vacuum?
 
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fugl said:
House Sparrows--along with that other long-erm human associate, the European Starling--is in steep decline in the UK (there have been lots of references to this on BF over the years). I don't know how thoroughly the causes for the decline are understood, but I think most speculation has centered on recent changes of one sort or another in the human/sparrow interface. Maybe in the fullness of time similar changes will induce a similar decline in the North American House Sparrow population, giving our native species another shot at filling the vacuum?
Click to expand...

Aren't house sparrows already decreasing in the US?

I heard somewhere (but cant find the reference) that the chemical that replaced lead in petrol interferes with the reproduction of moths whose larvae sparrows need to feed their young, in europe anyway...
 
Robert / Seattle said:
Jim,

Thanks for the clarification (still early here; the coffee had yet to kick in). Now, just why do you suppose someone would introduce this Western bird to the east?

Cheers,
Robert
Click to expand...

I believe the introduction was accidental. Not sure why House Finches were being kept in the East, but it could have been research purposes or even as pets.

Best,
Jim
 
J. Moore said:
I believe the introduction was accidental. Not sure why House Finches were being kept in the East, but it could have been research purposes or even as pets.

Best,
Jim
Click to expand...

Ah, a brain cell just fired! I have a distinct memory of them having been "imported" for the pet trade.

Thanks,
Robert
 
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breffni said:
Aren't house sparrows already decreasing in the US?QUOTE]

fugl said:
Yes, I believe you're right, but there's been nothing like the steep UK decline as yet. And they are still locally common in a great many places (e.g., in Reno, Nevada, where I live and where they are as abundant as ever).
Click to expand...

Still common here in Seattle, too. But I have noticed a slight decline in my own yard in the past decade. This may be due, however, to the maturation of my plantings - designed to favor native species as much as possible. And the native bird most similar in habits within my yard is, in fact, the House Finch - steadily gaining in dominance over the English Sparrow in my now nicely wooded lot.

Cheers,
Robert
Click to expand...
 
fugl and Robert are correct. The birds were being sold illegally in New York state under the name "Hollywood Finches", and a few dozen were released in Long Island, New York by the erstwhile seller(s) to avoid prosecution. I believe this happened in the 1940s.
 
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