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Zoom H4n question (1 Viewer)

B

birdeast

Well-known member
Im about to tread a very fine line so.... please be nice ;)

I am looking at the possibility of buying the recorder mentioned in the thread subject. What I am looking for is the ability to bring birds in a little closer for photography purposes. I know this is controversial with some people. I can assure everyone that I plan on doing this with care ie not during nesting season, not playing the same call over and over and over and generally trying to be conscious not to create too much stress for any bird that I attempt to call. Now on to my question...

Is it possible to make a 'decent' recording of a bird that is 30ft or so away with the H4n's onboard mics and then play back immediately? I am assuming that the subject will be calling very distinctly from that range and would be the predominate sound at that moment.

I know that having a shotgun mic is the way to go for 'good' field recording of bird song. I just dont know how I could manage a 500mm lens on tripod and at the same time use a recorder and aim a mic :-O

Generally would appreciate any guidance anyone is willing to offer.
 
I know nothing about the Zoom H4n recorder however using a camera with a 500mm lens and aiming a shotgun mic at the same time is very easy.

In my case, I use either a Sennheiser MKE 300 mic meant for video cameras or Sennheiser ME 66/K6 shotgun microphone in an Azden SMH-1 shockmount. This Azden mount is a general purpose mount meant for holding shotgun microphones on video cameras.

This fits into the flash hotshoe on the top of my Nikon DSLR and works great. Wherever I aim the camera, the mic is also aimed and I don't have to think about it...

Mitch...
 
Thank you for the information. Given that you dont have experience with the Zoom H4n, would you have a view on this type of recorder in general with regards to its onboard mics? The fact that you didnt speak to this in your original response seems to indicate that you may feel it is not viable even for on the spot playback purposes. Is this a fair assumption?

Nice to know that someone else is successfully using recorder, mic and long lens simulataneously. If I cant use the onboard mics, then maybe I will give this a shot.
 
On the contrary, I would expect using the built in mics to be quite usable however that defeats the purpose of a using a highly directional microphone, the end result is that you may be recording much more sounds besides the subject bird.

Again, I must caution you that I know very little about the Zoom H4n recorder other than having a brief look at it when I was selecting a recorder.

I can only assume that it would perform similarly to the Olympus LS-11 PCM recorder which is what I chose. The LS-11 and the Zoom H4n would appear to be similar with the exception the Zoom H4n is a 4 track recorder. Both recorders have built in microphones and if the Zoom H4n records as well as the LS-11 using the built in microphones, it should work very well.

You can hear a MP3 file of a bird made using the Olympus LS-11 built in microphones here:
http://www.4shared.com/audio/vcHc6Ckk/TF_Robin.html

Hope this helps,
Mitch...
 
thanks again Mitch... Maybe I will start with just the recorder and see how i go. Have been threatening to buy a recorder for almost 2 years now (almost bought a LS-10 at one point)

A question about your decision to buy the LS-10. Assuming your primary target is birds, why did you decide to go for a recorder that does not have the pre-record feature? I am a complete novice when it comes to recording, but it seems to me that the pre-record feature is bordering on critical because you have a couple of seconds to begin recording after you hear the bird. Is there something else that the LS-10 does particularly well that made you decide to overlook the absence of the pre-record feature?

Just yesterday, I returned home and there was a bird singing in the canopy over my house that I dont think I have heard before. I remembered and wrote down the basics of what I heard and now am going thru xeno-canto trying to match "what I remember hearing". Having a recorder (any recorder) even without external mic in that situation would have made my task a lot simpler.
 
birdeast said:
A question about your decision to buy the LS-10. Assuming your primary target is birds, why did you decide to go for a recorder that does not have the pre-record feature? I am a complete novice when it comes to recording, but it seems to me that the pre-record feature is bordering on critical because you have a couple of seconds to begin recording after you hear the bird. Is there something else that the LS-10 does particularly well that made you decide to overlook the absence of the pre-record feature?
Click to expand...


I chose the Olympus LS-11 over the Sony PCM-M10 for two simple reasons. The LS-11 shape, it seemed to me it would be easier to slip in and out of my shirt pocket and operate with one hand easier while I'm hanging on to binoculars or the microphone mounted on a pistol grip with my other hand.

My second reason is that the LS-11 uses SD/SDHC cards same as my Nikon cameras where as the Sony uses a Micro-SD card or the Sony memory stick. I am all geared up with a good high speed SDHC card reader and keep an adequate supply of SDHC 8Gb cards on hand.

As to the pre-record function, I don't see that as being of extreme importance for my application. I'm kind of old fashion, I've been working with various types of recording equipment all my career and I like to see the meters and be sure levels are correct before starting to record. Besides I've yet to hear a bird that called only once.

I do have to admit, the pre-record function is a great idea and the Sony having it gave me some difficulty in making the decision that I did however so far my reasoning has proven itself true and I find the LS-11 recorder very easy to handle and operate.

If I were to find myself needing another recorder at some point I may well buy the Sony PCM-M10 or the Zoom H4n. the three share a lot of similar features, possibly the Hn4 more than the other two.

However for my first PCM digital recorder I'm extremely happy with the Olympus LS-11

By the way, 11 days of operation using the LS-11 probably 4 or more hours a day, tonight its down to the last bar on the battery level indicator. Tomorrow I will put two new AA cells in it...

Mitch...
 
Its nice to hear from someone who has some experience with recording in general. Sounds like it really helped you make an informed decision.

I will probably end up going the way of h4n. If or when I do, I will share my 'novice' opinion on its features and performance. Heck, I might even post a bird song or 2 :t:

I just bought a $130 bird book today, so I may have a bit of difficulty convincing the wife that I need a recorder right now.

Thanks again for helping think this through.

Scott
 
Well..... I got my recorder. It ended up not being Zoom though.

I got a Sony M-10. Have been playing around with it a bit, but havent had a good opportunity to test it. I did try to record a couple of birds. On auto record level, there is little background noise and also very little bird noise :-O

When I try it on manual record level, I get strong background noise and strong (probably not the right term) bird song recording. I will definitely need to get a windscreen.

This weekend I will take it with me when i go to take photographs and see if there is an opportunity to test it.
 
birdeast said:
Well..... I got my recorder. It ended up not being Zoom though.

I got a Sony M-10. Have been playing around with it a bit, but havent had a good opportunity to test it. I did try to record a couple of birds. On auto record level, there is little background noise and also very little bird noise :-O

When I try it on manual record level, I get strong background noise and strong (probably not the right term) bird song recording. I will definitely need to get a windscreen.

This weekend I will take it with me when i go to take photographs and see if there is an opportunity to test it.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, I think you made a good choice and will be very happy with the PCM-M10.

I have found with the Olympus LS-11 that I use, with the unit's own mics, to record a bird song and get a decent recording, I have to be about 6 to 10 meters from the bird when using maximum record level in manual mode.

From what I have heard, most people find the record auto level control does not work for bird sounds. I use only the manual mode in my recorder at all times even with the Sennheiser ME 66 mic. And its only with the Sennheiser mic that I need to reduce the record level below maximum on occasion, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being maximum, I have backed it down to 6 for a noisy crow or Jay that is close to me. For small birds, I usually keep it at maximum but keep the limiter function turned on.

Let us know how it works out this weekend for you...
 
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The H4n is a great multi-track recorder.
The built in speaker lacks volume, and great sound, good for listening to your recordings when not using headphones, but as far as calling birds, I would not think so.
The Zoom H4n, also has two XLR inputs, which allow for two additional mics , that offer +24V, +48V phantom power. This gives you four tracks, to take home and mix , or you can do it in the field, with the H4n.
The H4n is very user friendly.
This is just a fraction of what it is capable of doing, the built in mics, allow for a directivity of 90 to 120 degree, High quality microphones in an XY pattern ensure a natural stereo image when recording sounds.
I have used it in the field to record bird sounds, and also from my balcony in the early morning to record bird sounds, with four tracks, it's awesome.
The H4n also doubles as a audio interface for your computer through USB, which enables you to record directly to your computer from either the built in stereo mics, or two of your own external mics plugged into the XLR connections.

If any body needs any more info on the H4n, just let me know, and I'll be happy to try and answer any questions.
 
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steinn said:
Hi
can you plug the H4n into your camera from the LineOut to use it as a spare mic??
Stein
Click to expand...

Stein,

In theory, that should be possible. As I have no idea what you plan to use for a camera, I can only say that with my Olympus LS-11 recorder and a Nikon D300s, yes, I can do what you describe.

There is one issue that must be dealt with, and that is Line Out is a high level output and the microphone in jack on the camera is preamplified for millivolt level signals from an external microphone.

Therefore, you need an interconnect cable with a pad of some sort built into it to reduce or swamp the level of the recorder output audio. A simple voltage divider made of a pair of resistors should work. I would suggest a 100Kohm from the hot pin of the connector that goes to the recorder line out jack with a 490 ohm resistor to ground from the Camera side of the 100Kohm resistor, i,e, to the shield or common (return) lead at connector to the recorder jack end of the cable. Using 1/8 watt size carbon film resistors, this can be made right on the back of the connector inside the connector cover and covered by the connector cover in many cases.

Please be aware, I am suggesting this as a means of providing you with an idea of how to go about such a set up. I have read in the Sony PCM-M10 manual that the Line Out level can be set to a lower value for use with headphones, if using a PCM-M10 recorder, this might be adequate depending on the type of level control in the camera. Understand I have not had a need to do this myself with this exact same equipment and I make this purely as a thought provoking suggestion...
 
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fmhill said:
Stein,


There is one issue that must be dealt with, and that is Line Out is a high level output and the microphone in jack on the camera is preamplified for millivolt level signals from an external microphone.
Click to expand...

Some specs. I found on the line out/headphone output :
Phones / Line Output: 1/8" stereo phone jack ●Output Load Impedance: 10kΩ or more ●Rated Output Level: -10dBm ●Phones Output Level: 20mW + 20mW into 32Ω load
.....I'm not really sure what that all means, without searching it, but I'm assuming you are talking about the power, and not the volume coming from the H4n line out, as the volume for mics, and line out is adjustable.....
Searched a little more, and came up with this :http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/line_to_mic.html So now I see where your coming from.. I think......
 
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BC blender said:
Some specs. I found on the line out/headphone output :
Phones / Line Output: 1/8" stereo phone jack ●Output Load Impedance: 10kΩ or more ●Rated Output Level: -10dBm ●Phones Output Level: 20mW + 20mW into 32Ω load
.....I'm not really sure what that all means, without searching it, but I'm assuming you are talking about the power, and not the volume coming from the H4n line out, as the volume for mics, and line out is adjustable.....
Searched a little more, and came up with this :http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/line_to_mic.html So now I see where your coming from.. I think......
Click to expand...

Let me see if I can put this in better perspective.

If my math is correct having been a long time since I have done such calculations being a retired old Pharte, if you use the formula, [Volts = square root of (power times resistance)] you get the voltage that appears at the earphone jack.

Power, 20mw = .020 watts, resistance = 32 ohms,

Square root of (.020*32) =.8 Volts... that is 800mv...

Most mic inputs are rated for 1mv to 10mv, nominal being 2.5mv input level.

Remember that mic inputs are often much higher impedance than a 32 ohm earphone, usually in the 1000 to 22000 ohm range.

Using 1000 ohms in the formula, you get 4.47 Volts.

Now, logically a recorder that operates off 3 VDC (2xAA cells) is not going to supply that kind of voltage and its a good chance what you will get is distorted unless you provide some type of reasonable load to dissipate the output power.

How low in mv can you adjust the earphone level reliably into a 1000 ohm or higher load? Its possible if the range of adjustment is low enough you can get away with using the volume adjustment however its been my experience that when turned all the way down, while you have reduced the output power to not hearing anything in the low impedance earphones, when the output is across a higher impedance load, there is still output and at what level is it?

Now that's just a quick pass through at the math, but its been my experience in the past with other types of recording equipment, that you need some type of swamping or padding network, often simply two resistors as described above to make a quality, low noise connection between two such instruments as described work as you'd want it to...

BTW, for what it is worth, -10dBm into 10k ohms = 1 volt...
 
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After having done that calculation about earphone jack power, I would change the resistor combination I had previously suggested, now knowing the earphone jack is the Line Out. A better resistor network would have a 33 ohm resistor directly across the output pins of the plug going into this jack to keep the recorder output looking into a proper load. Then, a 2.7K going to the signal out pin in series with the mic input signal wire to match the mic input impedance of the camera device.

If there is still too much output, this resistor network may need an additional third resistor to limit the voltage reaching the mic input of the camera even further.

The point is, it can be done...
 
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I have read over several forums dealing with pretty much the same situation.
Is it necessary to run the line into the camera ?
Couldn't the sound recorded onto the H4n, just be put in sync with the video, using software such as in the link above ?
It is nice that it can be done, the H4n is one machine that I am glad to have.
 
BC blender said:
I have read over several forums dealing with pretty much the same situation.
Is it necessary to run the line into the camera ?
Couldn't the sound recorded onto the H4n, just be put in sync with the video, using software such as in the link above ?
It is nice that it can be done, the H4n is one machine that I am glad to have.
Click to expand...


Hopefully someone more into Video making than me will chime in as I'm simply not into making videos.

I seem to spend too much time as it is taking still life photographs and making sound recordings of the birds I photograph and spending all my extra time attempting to identify the other birds whose sounds I get in the recording in the process.

My camera is primarily a top end DSLR with HD Video capability and about all I can confess to is experimenting with its video capability briefly to make a short video of a group of Eastern Gray Squirrels playing tag in my yard during mating season. Talk about a three ring circus!!!

Making HD videos is a neat concept, and something I would like to experiment with more when time permits however at this point, other than plugging a Sennheiser MKE300 microphone into the camera once, I really do not have much interest in using it to record high definition and high quality sound. After all, that is why I purchased a good recorder and microphone setup.

Who knows, given the time, I may change my mind...
 
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