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Kowa vs Swaro scopes (1 Viewer)

N

nickfb13

Member
Hi all,

I am currently in the market for a scope upgrade and have basically narrowed things down to 2 similarly-priced choices:

- Kowa 883 Prominar ED with 20-60x zoom eyepiece
- Swarovski ATS 80 HD with 25-50x wide angle zoom eyepiece (not going to spend the extra $$$ for the ATM since I understand it is optically identical to the ATS with just a lighter body)

Has anyone spent time comparing the digiscoping capabilities of the two scopes with zoom eyepieces?

I would think that the wider FOV of the Swaro zoom has the advantage, but the 88mm objective of the Kowa should also have a leg up on light-gathering.

Which difference is more important with digiscoping?

If the Swaro combo is better due to the wider FOV, would the Kowa setup with a fixed wide-angle eyepiece be the best of both worlds (FOV plus more light)?

I see that some folks are just starting to review the Swaro ATM with the 25-50x zoom. Now may be a good time to ask this question. I will apply the ATM reviews to the ATS because, as I understand, the two are optically identical.

Much thanks,
Nick

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT, USA
http://shorebirder.blogspot.com/
nbonomo (AT) gmail (DOT) com
 
Hi Nick,

Do not worry so much about the optical differences for digiscoping as the specs don't tell the whole story but instead concentrate on their adapter ergonomics and compatibility with the camera you want to use and the overall cost of the system.

The more important practical advantages the Kowa has over the Swaro (besides cost) for digiscoping are the dual speed focuser, a deeper lineup of camera adapters and a 25x LER and/or 14x VA3 eyepiece that works better with todays longer zoom lens digi/video cameras. I highly recommend you consider the straight #884 if your primary use is digi/video scoping.

Rick
 
Thanks Rick. Digiscoping is secondary to birding so I'll be going with the angled model.

As for the Kowa, which fixed eyepiece is better suited for digiscoping...the 25x LER or the 30x wide angle?

Appreciate the input.

- Nick
 
Really depends on the camera lens. If the camera lens is under 4x zoom, the 30x might be best. For 5x and above then the 25x LER. Kowa Japan and Casio have a special site promoting the Casio FC100/150 for digiscoping using the 25x LER. I have played with it and it seems like a fun combo. Click on #6 at the bottom to see the parts needed.

Rick
 
Thanks again Rick. I currently own the Canon a590, and unless I can pick up a secondhand Nikon p6000 or maybe spring for a new Canon s90, I'll try to figure something with the a590. I'll bet I can search the archives here for folks who have tried that setup.

Since you're a wealth of Kowa knowledge, I'll keep picking your brain if you don't mind! I checked out the Kowa/Casio link you provided (thanks for that!). Is the DA100 designed exclusively for that Casio camera? How does it attach to the camera?

Nick
 
Yes the DA100 is made for the Casio FC100/150. It attaches via the tripod thread.

To attach the A590 you need the DA10 + adapter ring to fit the thread of A590's lens accessory adapter tube.

I highly recommend the DA4 swing out adapter since you want visual use. Slipping a camera on/off on the fly can cause lots of frustrations. It is expensive, but lightweigt and well made plus you will be able to use more current cameras.

I am on record here as not being a fan of the Nikon P6000. I feel it makes you work too hard for the results. Just being forced to charge the battery in-camera is reason enough not to buy it IMO. But it gets traction here for some strange reason even though every other camera review site (even Nikon fan boys like Ken Rockwell and Thom Hogan) pans it. Of course, there are nice are digiscoping pics posted with it but I think it mainly due to the skill of the folks behind the lens.

Rick
 
RJM said:
Really depends on the camera lens. If the camera lens is under 4x zoom, the 30x might be best. For 5x and above then the 25x LER. Kowa Japan and Casio have a special site promoting the Casio FC100/150 for digiscoping using the 25x LER. I have played with it and it seems like a fun combo. Click on #6 at the bottom to see the parts needed.

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick

Just as a matter of interest, how far up the optical zoom of the casio did vignetting disappear on the 5X using the 25x LER?

Regards

Paul
 
Hi Paul,

If you click #7 on the website I linked to above you will see a table with the various eyepiece configurations. Kowa indicates vignetting disappears at the 51mm zoom step for a viginette-free minimum effective focal length of 1275mm. For HD video, the numbers are 43mm or 1075mm respectively. All these numbers are quite good digiscoping minimums. Moreover, there is no vignetting from these points throughout the 185mm focal length of the lens.

cheers,
Rick
 
Nick,

If you plan to use the scope mainly for viewing and digiscoping would be a secondary purpose, I would be tempted to recommend the zoom instead of fixed eyepieces. Both Kowa and Swaro zooms are SO good and they work so well for digiscoping that IMHO you would compromise your birding more with the fixed eyepieces. If you decide for the zoom, the big question will be - which is more important to you: wide-angled low range (Swaro) or max power (Kowa). From the digiscoping point of view the Swaro works very well with short zooms (that don't require too much ER) because you can zoom the eyepiece and keep the camera lens at its 'sweet spot' - the Kowa OTOH has a little more ER at low end (20x), which may be an advantage with some cameras, but zooming the eyepiece rapidly causes vignetting.

Best of luck,

Ilkka :t:
 
RJM said:
Hi Nick,

Do not worry so much about the optical differences for digiscoping as the specs don't tell the whole story but instead concentrate on their adapter ergonomics and compatibility with the camera you want to use and the overall cost of the system.

The more important practical advantages the Kowa has over the Swaro (besides cost) for digiscoping are the dual speed focuser, a deeper lineup of camera adapters and a 25x LER and/or 14x VA3 eyepiece that works better with todays longer zoom lens digi/video cameras. I highly recommend you consider the straight #884 if your primary use is digi/video scoping.

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick is right on here when he states the importance of adapters and ergonomics. Quality wise, you are not going to tell that much of a difference in the optics. A scope for this amount of money is going to be prime, Kowa or Swaro.

But one reason I selected the Swaro is that it did not have dual focus. When digiscoping and following birds as they move, I preferred the single ring focus that swaro has. I can have one hand on the ring keeping the bird in focus and the other on the tripod as I follow the bird. Very easy. My thinking is that the dual focus works great when the bird is in the same general area as you first needed to use one knob to focus generally and the second more refined knob to hone in on. But at times the bird flies off to the point of having to use two focus knobs and I didn't want that, or at least that is the way I viewed it. I could be wrong.

Second huge reason is the adapter. I have the DCB adapter made by swaro. It will fit any point and shoot and there are many out there to choose from. But the reason I prefer the swaro DCB adapter is that I can 'swing' the camera up and out of the way when I want to use the scope to locate the bird. I am not relying on the viewfinder of the camera to locate birds and when I do find one, I just 'swing' the adapter down and the shot is ready to take. Very easy, very good quality.

Eagle Optics page for this adapter: http://www.eagleoptics.com/digital-...arovski-digital-camera-base-for-angled-scopes

I am not going to downgrade the Kowa itself for it is a superb scope so you need to find the scope that best fits you and your comfort with it. Try them out if you can. Feel them, see if you like the dual or single ring focus. Look at both adapters available and if like me, you might find that the 'swing' away aspect of the swaro is handy. Now, the Kowa might have that feature too....not sure?
jim
 
Last edited:
I've no experience of the Kowa but i have the Swaro with the 25-50x wide angle zoom and the DCB adaptor and i'm sure its a combination that you wouldnt be dissapointed with.
 
nickfb13 said:
Hi all,

I am currently in the market for a scope upgrade and have basically narrowed things down to 2 similarly-priced choices:

- Kowa 883 Prominar ED with 20-60x zoom eyepiece
- Swarovski ATS 80 HD with 25-50x wide angle zoom eyepiece (not going to spend the extra $$$ for the ATM since I understand it is optically identical to the ATS with just a lighter body)

Has anyone spent time comparing the digiscoping capabilities of the two scopes with zoom eyepieces?

I would think that the wider FOV of the Swaro zoom has the advantage, but the 88mm objective of the Kowa should also have a leg up on light-gathering.

Which difference is more important with digiscoping?

If the Swaro combo is better due to the wider FOV, would the Kowa setup with a fixed wide-angle eyepiece be the best of both worlds (FOV plus more light)?

I see that some folks are just starting to review the Swaro ATM with the 25-50x zoom. Now may be a good time to ask this question. I will apply the ATM reviews to the ATS because, as I understand, the two are optically identical.

Much thanks,
Nick

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT, USA
http://shorebirder.blogspot.com/
nbonomo (AT) gmail (DOT) com
Click to expand...

Nick

Have you managed to look through any of these two scopes? if i was parting with that much money, i would make a concerted effort to look through them, test any eyepieces, digiscoping adapters? connect a camera to them? if you havent, it may be advisable to do so, no matter what we all say on here, its your buck your spending and if you are dissapointed or your expectations are not fulfilled, its an important one to really think about? if you have then fine.

Regards

Paul
 
Paul Hackett said:
Nick

Have you managed to look through any of these two scopes? if i was parting with that much money, i would make a concerted effort to look through them, test any eyepieces, digiscoping adapters? connect a camera to them? if you havent, it may be advisable to do so, no matter what we all say on here, its your buck your spending and if you are dissapointed or your expectations are not fulfilled, its an important one to really think about? if you have then fine.

Regards

Paul
Click to expand...

Nick...you live near NYC....make a trip to B and H in NYC and feel both scopes for they sell both brands. Get a feel of what you are looking at, what feels good in your hands, etc.... Way too much money at bay to not put them through the ringer... jim
 
The are about even optically with a small advantage to the Kowa. However, The Swaro got way better ergonomics, the heliocentric focuser is much easier to use, also the focuser wont get stuck on stuff when you move the scope in and out of the car, like the Kowa focuser will. It is a more rugged scope body too. Additionally the DCB digiscoping adapter is a really clever adapter, coupled with the ATM/s it´s just great.
 
Much thanks to everyone for their replies.

I have looked through both the Swaro ATS80HD + 20-50x zoom and the Kowa 883 + 20-60x zoom side-by-side. Optically, the Kowa seemed a touch brighter while the FOV of the Swaro was nice and wide as advertised. I do like the extra 50-60x magnification of the Kowa zoom when scoping distant shorebirds for example. The other pros/cons of each scope cancel each other out for me...both feel "right" in my hands. They're both obviously an improvement over my current trusty AT80HD. I know I'd be happy with either and was hoping I might use digiscoping ability as a tie-breaker!

The Swaro DCB adapter sounds interesting. Has anyone tried the Swaro DCB versus the Kowa DA4? Perhaps I can search the archives here for that. It will be much more difficult for me to test the adapters myself. Like Jim suggested, I may have to run down to B&H in NYC if they have the adapters in stock there.

FWIW I would have considered the Leica too, but it's too rich for my blood...

Thanks again,
Nick

Nick Bonomo
Wallingford, CT, USA
http://shorebirder.blogspot.com/
nbonomo (AT) gmail (DOT) com
 
I really like my DCB-A adapter, very smooth operation. FYI I have a friend who has the 88mm Kowa scope and I sometimes compare it to my 65mm Swaro ATS65HD scope. I dont think the Kowa produce a better image, it does not show more detail and I think the Swaro produce a more natural image. This is during daytime, at dusk his bigger objective might be better to let light in. However his Kowa with the 20-60x might be a lemon, I have only compared my scope to this.
 
Just to cap off this discussion...over the last month I've extensively tested the Kowa 883 and Swaro ATS80 HD with 25-50 zoom side-by-side. As it turned out, since a large part of my birding/scoping involves shorebirds, I could not live without the extra 50-60x range of the Kowa zoom eyepiece. When I compared the Kowa to the Swaro, the Kowa appeared a bit superior in brightness (in low light) and resolution, while the Swaro obviously had the edge in FOV. Both are fine scopes, but the Kowa seemed a touch better, particularly in low light, and fit my overall birding needs better. I'm really going to enjoy the dual-knob focusing!

As for the digiscoping aspect, I currently own the Canon A590 so I'll see what I can do as far as homemade adapters go. If I am unhappy with that, and if I'm willing to spend the extra cash, I may upgrade cameras and go with a commercial adapter. I have always just hand-held, mainly for just record shots, but the incredible image produced by this scope has me considering going all-out with the digiscoping... I see what others have been able to produce with these optics.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

- Nick
 
I'm in the process of trying out some homemade (or partially homemade) adapters for my Kowa 883 + Canon A590. I recently purchased the Canon LA-DC52G Conversion Lens Adapter, which I plan on altering to fit snugly around the eyepiece, but a few days ago I was able to try hand-holding with it and was pleased to see that pressing the camera+adapter against the eyepiece's rubber eyecup gave enough stability for some halfway decent shots, without vignetting. Best results were obtained with the eyecup twisted down all the way, as this was the best camera-to-eyepiece distance for vignette-free images.

See here for the images:
http://shorebirder.blogspot.com/2010/06/kowa-883-digiscoping-adapters-part-1.html

- Nick
 
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