Chiffchaff and Willow Warbler IDs (1 Viewer)

ChrisKten · Jul 13, 2011

I've been curious about something for some time, so I thought that I'd ask now.

How confident are you all of distinguishing a Willow Warbler from a Chiffchaff, and in particular, from a picture in an ID thread. It's probably the most frequent ID request, and there's often confident replies. TBH, I can't tell them apart; although I might have a good idea which was which if one picture was posted of each species (I'd just say that the one with the longest wings was probably a Willow Warbler)

But how sure are you really? Would you bet your house on being right?

And one last question; if I posted pics of say a Willow Warbler from a couple of years ago, that was identified as such in the ID forum, how many of you would be confident that it would again be identified as a Willow Warbler?|=)|

nickderry · Jul 13, 2011

It's hard from a single photo, especially at this time of year when the adults are worn and look very similar. I've refrained from responding to many willowchiff threads (and stuck my neck in in others) as I couldn't decide from the photo - today is a good example (and maybe the inspiration for the thread) where I wasn't sure. Luckily in the field it can often be easier - birds sing, and also the chiffchaff's habit of pumping its tail is quite a good clue to identity, but as with a lot of things, some have to be let go as unidentified.

Simon Wates · Jul 13, 2011

Both in the field and on a reasonable view/photo I believe structure to be diagnostic. In this case, the placement of the primaries and the wing length - which I thought was clear on today's ID post - http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=205719

If we cannot rely on structure then ringing data and basic ID of the two would be all out - which obviously isn't the case. Is there such thing as a very long-winged Chiffchaff (just a thought!)?

Here in southern Portugal we will soon be in-undated with Willow Warblers on passage - I mean birds everywhere! I find just seeing them flitting about with more swoopy flight makes them stand out even from Iberian Chiffchaffs that also move through quite early.

Anyway - would I bet my house on it? Not likely!

RE Birder · Jul 13, 2011

I would always go on primary projection. Not always easy on photos.
In the field willow warblers tend to flick/pump their tails.

ChrisKten · Jul 13, 2011

Thanks for replying, Nick.

I can understand that you can be more confident in the field, although I've not even reached that stage yet|=)|

It wasn't anything in particular today, that made me start this thread. I was looking at pictures from a couple of years ago, and I realised that all of the CC/WW pictures were IDed here before I put them in their folders. So I was thinking that I might have some in the wrong folder.

It's not really important to me if one of my CC pics is actually a WW (I'm not a "birder", and the pics are just to remind me of what I saw), but I've a feeling it might be important to others.

ChrisKten · Jul 13, 2011

Simon Wates said:
Both in the field and on a reasonable view/photo I believe structure to be diagnostic. In this case, the placement of the primaries and the wing length - which I thought was clear on today's ID post - http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=205719

If we cannot rely on structure then ringing data and basic ID of the two would be all out - which obviously isn't the case. Is there such thing as a very long-winged Chiffchaff (just a thought!)?

Here in southern Portugal we will soon be in-undated with Willow Warblers on passage - I mean birds everywhere! I find just seeing them flitting about with more swoopy flight makes them stand out even from Iberian Chiffchaffs that also move through quite early.

Anyway - would I bet my house on it? Not likely!

Yes, I really wasn't sure about the one in the thread you mention; I really did just guess.

nickderry · Jul 13, 2011

We all know the field characteristics we're supposed to be looking for, but it's how you interpret them - look at this willow warbler's primary projection before it's misinterpreted to become a chiffchaff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsCyuHfYdSY

Simon Wates · Jul 13, 2011

nickderry said:
We all know the field characteristics we're supposed to be looking for, but it's how you interpret them - look at this willow warbler's primary projection before it's misinterpreted to become a chiffchaff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsCyuHfYdSY

Nice one Nick...I know I wasn't saying anything new but it's difficult to, given the willowchiff subject! The video is interesting and I would have called the first bird a WW. I don't have sound on my computer at the moment so I couldn't hear - although I read that this one didn't call and that it was considered to be a female Chiffchaff. In the field I think even the most experienced catch themselves out with these two on silent birds sometimes - but mostly get them right.

Its too easy to become over-confident and as you put it so clearly - it depends how they are interpreted.

Simon

nickderry · Jul 13, 2011

Simon Wates said:
Nice one Nick...I know I wasn't saying anything new but it's difficult to, given the willowchiff subject! The video is interesting and I would have called the first bird a WW. I don't have sound on my computer at the moment so I couldn't hear - although I read that this one didn't call and that it was considered to be a female Chiffchaff. In the field I think even the most experienced catch themselves out with these two on silent birds sometimes - but mostly get them right.

Its too easy to become over-confident and as you put it so clearly - it depends how they are interpreted.

Simon

just in case I misinterpreted your post,

the first bird in the clip IS a willow warbler, just before the helpful annotations appear you can see the wingtip being a whole two primaries longer than the diagram would have us believe.

Simon Wates · Jul 13, 2011

Thanks Nick - really, I did mean I thought it a WW - wasn't clear of me at all and now it looks like I'm making it up! - I meant to have highlighted the fact that the comment on the video assumed it was the female of the nearby Chiffchaff

nickderry · Jul 13, 2011

Simon Wates said:
Thanks Nick - really, I did mean I thought it a WW - wasn't clear of me at all and now it looks like I'm making it up! - I meant to have highlighted the fact that the comment on the video assumed it was the female of the nearby Chiffchaff

ok, no probs, I watched it at first thinking, that chiffchaff looks wrong and it isn't pumping its tail at all - but I had to wait to see the clinching features - which is I suppose how it is in the field. The more I get familiar with these birds, the more I find my first impression was right when conditions allow observation of the key id criteria. There are of course always some that get re-identified on closer inspection.

Fozzybear · Jul 15, 2011

It comes down to two points:

1. if it sings you've nailed it

2. if it doesn't sing then name it whatever seems more likely and move on before you change your mind.

Job done.

Simon Wates · Jul 15, 2011

nickderry said:
The more I get familiar with these birds, the more I find my first impression was right when conditions allow observation of the key id criteria. There are of course always some that get re-identified on closer inspection.

I agree totally!

Monahawk · Jul 15, 2011

RE Birder said:
I would always go on primary projection. Not always easy on photos.
In the field willow warblers tend to flick/pump their tails.

Even the tail pumping habits are not that reliable to go on, but I always thought it was chiffchaffs that did more tail flicking as I have observed this while watching them singing. I could be wrong. This time of the year creates a real conundrum with these two warblers now that their singing has diminished and there are young birds abound. Willows tend to develop lemony yellow breast feathers after breeding or on passage.
Can anyone hold their hand up and say they can differentiate the anxiety or alarm call [hooeet] between the two. With willows it is supposed to be more longer and drawn out, but I can never be certain.

Si.

Mari E · Jul 19, 2011

I can only be quite confident when it's showing all positive ID features

dbradnum · Jul 19, 2011

Monahawk said:
Even the tail pumping habits are not that reliable to go on, but I always thought it was chiffchaffs that did more tail flicking as I have observed this while watching them singing. I could be wrong.

...but you're not. It's Chiffs that habitually tail-dip, though Willow W can do this occasionally so it's not bomb-proof. The Collins guide places enough weight on this to note it as a significant characteristic, though.

RE Birder · Jul 19, 2011

RE Birder said:
I would always go on primary projection. Not always easy on photos.
In the field willow warblers tend to flick/pump their tails.

Just looked back to this thread and seen my mistake picked up by you both, it is if course Chiffs that tail pump, must have been writing whilst having my 2 little ones hanging off me. Thanks for picking that up.

Chiffchaff and Willow Warbler IDs (1 Viewer)

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