Do you count heard only birds on your life list? (2 Viewers)

[Mysticete]

Definitely option 4. I don't know where the skill is in simply hearing something? Plus with the abundance of talented mimics around, how could you ever be sure that what you think you're hearing is what you're actually hearing - unless you see it.

Could make those same arguments against vision only lists...for many birders seeing a bird is identifying it on easy mode and doesn't require the degree of skill. And I don't see how the existence of vocal mimics is any different that cryptic species with few readily identifiable field marks, which is magnified if they are also skulky in behavior or shy.

 

[dantheman]

Definitely option 4. I don't know where the skill is in simply hearing something? Plus with the abundance of talented mimics around, how could you ever be sure that what you think you're hearing is what you're actually hearing - unless you see it.

There is probably a degree of skill in eliminating mimics and being satisfied that you have the species you think it is ...


On the flip side, I don't really have that skill set personally ... I'm assuming that a certain bar has to be reached in terms of habitat/location/knowing the potential mimics etc and that birders ticking things on sound are using due diligence. (I suspect not always the case?)

 

[Andy Adcock]

I think it's kind of a grey area, because I do count heard only birds on my life list but as heard only. So I have 2 numbers for my life list. This wasn't given specifically as an option. I consider this a different option because it differs from all my other bird lists (patch, garden, year, trip etc) which don't differentiate at all between seen and heard only.

I 'record' them but don't count them, a trip report would be incomplete without noting any and all contacts in whatever medium.

 

[Andy Adcock]

There is probably a degree of skill in eliminating mimics and being satisfied that you have the species you think it is ...


On the flip side, I don't really have that skill set personally ... I'm assuming that a certain bar has to be reached in terms of habitat/location/knowing the potential mimics etc and that birders ticking things on sound are using due diligence. (I suspect not always the case?)

A lot of skill, the kind that most of us do not possess, making the recognition of most species by ear, on a trip to the Americas, impossible for most of us.

Without such skill, how are people making these ID's in the field, they wouldn't be playing a tape by any chance?

 

[dantheman]

A lot of skill, the kind that most of us do not possess, making the recognition of most species by ear, on a trip to the Americas, impossible for most of us.

Without such skill, how are people making these ID's in the field, they wouldn't be playing a tape by any chance?

Hopefully someone in the know will answer.

In a UK context, can't really think of an example where you'd tick a bird that was being mimicked without knowing it was a mimic - eg you wouldn't (year/day) tick a Buzzard on call when you're being lazy and it was in fact a Starling or Jay. Likewise with passerines - a singing mimic does various things and it should be obvious that there aren't 5 different species in a bush all taking it in turns ... does that transcribe to the rainforest though???

Presumably people don't just tick every random whistle and peep as a rare skulker just because it sounds like one.

 

[01101001]

Sound ID still lacks the comprehensive treatment that ID by sight has in field guides, confusion species and all.

 

[Mysticete]

Hopefully someone in the know will answer.

In a UK context, can't really think of an example where you'd tick a bird that was being mimicked without knowing it was a mimic - eg you wouldn't (year/day) tick a Buzzard on call when you're being lazy and it was in fact a Starling or Jay. Likewise with passerines - a singing mimic does various things and it should be obvious that there aren't 5 different species in a bush all taking it in turns ... does that transcribe to the rainforest though???

Presumably people don't just tick every random whistle and peep as a rare skulker just because it sounds like one.

Exactly. People prone to ticking every odd sound as a rarity are the same type of people to turn every Willow Warbler into some rare East Asian vagrant. So there is not really any difference here.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Hopefully someone in the know will answer.

In a UK context, can't really think of an example where you'd tick a bird that was being mimicked without knowing it was a mimic - eg you wouldn't (year/day) tick a Buzzard on call when you're being lazy and it was in fact a Starling or Jay. Likewise with passerines - a singing mimic does various things and it should be obvious that there aren't 5 different species in a bush all taking it in turns ... does that transcribe to the rainforest though???

Presumably people don't just tick every random whistle and peep as a rare skulker just because it sounds like one.

You can't compare the UK to South America, the number of species is overwhelming by comparion.

 

[wolfbirder]

How do you know birds calling are not recordings?

Best bird I heard and not saw was a Desert Owl in Israel - not counting that though on my life list - got to have seen it.
In fact I was more likely to count a freshly-dead and limp Nubian Nightjar than anything ' only heard'.

Each to their own of course.

 

[01101001]

How do you know birds calling are not recordings?

Avoiding people while birding

 

[RyanI]

If I actively kept lists (even my patch list is behind times nowadays) I would chose 1. I'd never really thought about not counting heard only, when carrying out surveys I'd say 95% of the birds I record on BBS are heard only so have always seen it as equal to seeing the bird. I get far more enjoyment out of sound recording than photography nowadays too

 

[dantheman]

You can't compare the UK to South America, the number of species is overwhelming by comparion.

Which is why I said in a UK context.

But can you extrapolate out? Is it the same principle? For people who are good with sounds, have done their research and have a degree of experience building up is it not similar, just much more to get a handle on???

The specific question I would ask in South America is - do you get mimics which accurately mimic a single species, such that to the human ear they are indistinguishable? It doesn't make a lot of sense if they are solely so similar, as it would be wasted energy in finding mates as they'd never know if they were going to encounter their own species. I thought mimics mimic a wide variety of species generally in order to show off their vocal range prowess in mate selection ... or something like that?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Which is why I said in a UK context.

But can you extrapolate out? Is it the same principle? For people who are good with sounds, have done their research and have a degree of experience building up is it not similar, just much more to get a handle on???

it's obviously do'able for those gifted enough, the only bird that has ever had me running in circles is Chorister Robin Chat which mimics African Emerald Cuckoo, don't know if the experts can tell the difference?

 

[opisska]

The "tape argument" is probably a larger concern to the typical "birding tourist" who goes to popular birding destinations (or for local birding in heavily populated areas). But I can assure you, that all times that I heard Desert Owl, there were no people for kilometers around me.

Also this is actually a valid use for thermal imagers in birding - it's very easy to see people in them Sounds absurd, but I actually did validate my HO Scops Owl twitch in Prague this way - there were people taping earlier in the evening, but later at night, my thermal easily showed that there were no large warm blooded animals!

 

[Paul Chapman]

Which is why I said in a UK context.

But can you extrapolate out? Is it the same principle? For people who are good with sounds, have done their research and have a degree of experience building up is it not similar, just much more to get a handle on???

The specific question I would ask in South America is - do you get mimics which accurately mimic a single species, such that to the human ear they are indistinguishable? It doesn't make a lot of sense if they are solely so similar, as it would be wasted energy in finding mates as they'd never know if they were going to encounter their own species. I thought mimics mimic a wide variety of species generally in order to show off their vocal range prowess in mate selection ... or something like that?

it's obviously do'able for those gifted enough, the only bird that has ever had me running in circles is Chorister Robin Chat which mimics African Emerald Cuckoo, don't know if the experts can tell the difference?

Various species mimic others and indeed, some species specialise in mimicry.

My most recent trip was Thailand. Mimicry is why White-rumped Shama is popular in the Asian bird trade and indeed, it has been trapped out at some locations.

In the presence of those with exceptional ability on bird sounds (and when attempting to learn local bird sounds), you get used to conversations along the lines of whether it is species X or a Greater Racket-tailed Drongo or White-tailed Shama mimicking species X. That said, that type of debate is no more nor no less than other bird identification challenges.

I always start a trip trying to learn bird calls and songs and soon despair but by the end, you can recognise some if nowhere near most and you keep trying. Whilst I doubt the extremists on here use such tools, I imagine most operating in this decade will have their Merlin bird packs and be listening at least to key targets either on site or ahead of visiting a site. Just downloaded the Uganda pack. Indeed, apparently my downloaded packs total 5,477 species (and most of those will have vocalisations attached). So it is not as if some of the arguments on here stack up very well for those no longer operating in the Field Guide only era.

All the best

Paul

 

[Steve Babbs]

Just downloaded the Uganda pack.

When In Uganda will you be happy to tick this?

Green-breasted Pitta (Pitta reichenowi) :: xeno-canto

xeno-canto.org

I certainly wouldn't have. I wanted this. But everyone to their own.

 

[cajanuma]

The specific question I would ask in South America is - do you get mimics which accurately mimic a single species, such that to the human ear they are indistinguishable?

Lawrence's Thrush is one of the most skilled mimics of all. But even then, within one bout of singing it will switch from one species to the next numerous times, so with a little bit of listening it's easy to figure out you are hearing the thrush and not 15-20 different species singing in rapid succession from the same spot.

 

[Paul Chapman]

When In Uganda will you be happy to tick this?

Green-breasted Pitta (Pitta reichenowi) :: xeno-canto

xeno-canto.org

I certainly wouldn't have. I wanted this. But everyone to their own.

Yes, I would tick the Pitta on call. Obviously, I would want to see it and to photograph it but I doubt that you really see much connection between the elements of your post.

To be blunt, being happy one way or the other or obsessing about the outcomes is a way to ensure misery out of positive experiences and privileges. I'll certainly ensure that I am not unhappy if I only hear the Pitta. Even if I do not hear it or see it or photograph it, I'll take the positives.

On a recent Peru trip, I recorded nine Antpittas - six photo'd, one seen only & two heard only. I thought quite hard and was quite miserable about the ones that I did not see or photo but to be blunt, that just indicated that I was a petulant child.

On my recent Thailand trip, I recorded four Pittas - three photo'd & one seen only. I kicked myself for fluffing the photo on the one that was seen only. But again to be blunt, that just indicated that I was a petulant child.

I should have been happy and privileged regardless. That does not mean that you diminish your efforts.

Two hours with a thermal to turn an Oriental Bay Owl calling into a sighting. Three nights' effort to see Mountain Scops Owl. So there you go. Merely because you would tick something on call does not mean that you do not want to maximise the experiences.

My best Pitta experience in Thailand was a territorial dispute between two Mangrove Pitta pairs when I had already heard, then seen and then photo'd the species on a previous day. It was still an upgrade on my previous experience with the species.

I will work out my life list at some point. I will also work out what I have seen and photographed. But the numbers to be blunt are irrelevant to me. I'll still want to photograph a Blue Pitta or improve my Oriental Bay Owl photo.

Back to sitting in the wet and cold with my moth traps...

All the best

Paul

 

[Farnboro John]

Yes, I would tick the Pitta on call. Obviously, I would want to see it and to photograph it but I doubt that you really see much connection between the elements of your post.

To be blunt, being happy one way or the other or obsessing about the outcomes is a way to ensure misery out of positive experiences and privileges. I'll certainly ensure that I am not unhappy if I only hear the Pitta. Even if I do not hear it or see it or photograph it, I'll take the positives.

On a recent Peru trip, I recorded nine Antpittas - six photo'd, one seen only & two heard only. I thought quite hard and was quite miserable about the ones that I did not see or photo but to be blunt, that just indicated that I was a petulant child.

On my recent Thailand trip, I recorded four Pittas - three photo'd & one seen only. I kicked myself for fluffing the photo on the one that was seen only. But again to be blunt, that just indicated that I was a petulant child.

I should have been happy and privileged regardless. That does not mean that you diminish your efforts.

Two hours with a thermal to turn an Oriental Bay Owl calling into a sighting. Three nights' effort to see Mountain Scops Owl. So there you go. Merely because you would tick something on call does not mean that you do not want to maximise the experiences.

My best Pitta experience in Thailand was a territorial dispute between two Mangrove Pitta pairs when I had already heard, then seen and then photo'd the species on a previous day. It was still an upgrade on my previous experience with the species.

I will work out my life list at some point. I will also work out what I have seen and photographed. But the numbers to be blunt are irrelevant to me. I'll still want to photograph a Blue Pitta or improve my Oriental Bay Owl photo.

Back to sitting in the wet and cold with my moth traps...

All the best

Paul

I don't see being self-critical about fluffing a photo-opp as petulant, especially if your review of the circumstances leads to improved practice in the future and a lower fluff rate. Aspiring to higher standards underpins all self-improvement.

If you were just wishing you had got a photo when you hadn't that would be different....

John

 

[Welsh Peregrine]

As for Pittas; at one point I was listening to 3 Ivory-breasted Pittas simultaneously, but not a glimpse of any. It remains off my life list (and not on my heard only list, as I don’t keep one) despite being a much more vivid memory than many species I have seen! On the other hand, Pennant-winged Nightjar is on, even though the individuals I have seen were pennantless. As said before by others; my list, my rules.