Thanks Jerry, availability is improving in Europe so I am sure it is Stateside too.
Lee
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Super-bins Shoot-out: Zeiss SF8x42 meets Swarovski 8.5x42 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Troubador
- Start date
Thanks Jerry, availability is improving in Europe so I am sure it is Stateside too.
Lee
I don't think its too big either, Deckie, but like I said, everyone has their own idea about what is too much length or weight.
Very nice pic of the SFs BTW :t:
Lee
I don't have a 10X42 SV for direct comparison and, truthfully, my reaction to the 10X50 is gestalt in nature. Out of the box I knew it was special but I can't tell you why.
Sometimes things just 'speak' to you Pileatus and you know it's the right one for you.
Lee
Yes Brock, but this is only 1 (one) thread for each of the binocular models that it sells..... :smoke:
Lee
brocknroller
porromaniac
Lee,
I'll admit your "admit" correction. :smoke:
It's widely known that you are a Zeiss fan, tried and true, which is why I used that word. If you had chosen the SV EL over the SF, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd still be in treatment for shock. :eek!:
On the cyclic idea, I don't think you can go back to ye olde days to look for an example of one company toppling another with a top new product, because none of the alphas had as many choices in their line-ups as they do now. Nor were they so similar in design. Think EDG, SV EL and SF. All you had in 1999 was the EL in this design/price segment.
Even Leica, which hasn't come out with a new top banana (which will probably weigh 1/2 a banana less than the competition
) has the new Trinnie, Silverlines, and the Amazing Technicolor Compacts. And, as you pointed out, Zeiss has upgraded its second tier offerings and has entered the entry-level roof market (did a good job with the 8x32 Terra ED, I might add). Today's alpha offerings aren't your father's skimpy line-ups of a 7x42 Dialyt or 10x40 B/GA or 8x56 B/GA.
I think what we have seen over the past 10 years or so is the establishment of New World Order in Sports Optics. As much as it pains me to admit it since it might fan the fire of the Defenders, Swaro has established itself on the top of the Pyramid. As we know from examples in Egypt, pyramids last a long time and do not topple easily.
For those like Steve C. who don't already own any alphas, and have deep pockets from selling pricey organic produce and beef, Zeiss has some very intriguing offerings in the HT and SF, but note that even Steve is leaning toward Swaro in his percentages (my guess it's the hunter in him).
I'll stick with my "big assumption" that most SV EL and SLC HD owners will not likely switch brands to Zeiss, but rather Zeiss's customers at the top end will come from those who either don't own alphas or own very old ones and are looking to upgrade to something new. You don't need "time will tell" when you have precognition like I do. :smoke:
Where Zeiss is most competitive is at the second tier level with the Conquest HD line. Heck, that bulletproof video even had me thinking about buying one, and I usually don't even think twice about closed bridge roofs.
Swaro has nothing to compete with the Conquest 8x and 10x42 HD at that price point. The 8x30 CL might compete with the 8x32 CHD, but I see more birders going for the CHD and hunters for the CL. Most birders prefer a wide FOV and a good close focus.
And Zeiss is now also competitive with its entry-level market with the Terra ED line. The Big Three have nothing at this level, the only competition from an alpha maker is from Nikon's 30mm M7s. I wonder if Zeiss will expand its Terra line like they did their other two lines to compete with Nikon's 8x and 10x56 Monarch 5s?
Even if Leica came out with its version of the EDG/SV EL/SF, it would be "too little, too late." Leica fans obviously don't care about edge performance or they would have bought one of the above instead. As the saying goes, "first come, first served."
Unless Leica breaks with tradition and uses Pergers in its new alpha line, I think UV HD+ is as good as it's going to get, which for some will be good enough, but not enough to topple Swaro from the top of the Pyramid.
Brock
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Pileatus. Stop it with the SV 10x50. You are making me want one. I know they are good. It is that big 50mm aperture that makes them so good. But can you really put up with the 33oz.?
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Yes, the voices are getting louder.
Sanjay Naithani
Well-known member
Lee,
I'll admit your "admit" correction. :smoke:
It's widely known that you are a Zeiss fan, tried and true, which is why I used that word. If you had chosen the SV EL over the SF, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd still be in treatment for shock. :eek!:
On the cyclic idea, I don't think you can go back to ye olde days to look for an example of one company toppling another with a top new product, because none of the alphas had as many choices in their line-ups as they do now. Nor were they so similar in design. Think EDG, SV EL and SF. All you had in 1999 was the EL in this design/price segment.
Even Leica, which hasn't come out with a new top banana (which will probably weigh 1/2 a banana less than the competition
And, as you pointed out, Zeiss has upgraded its second tier offerings and has entered the entry-level roof market (did a good job with the 8x32 Terra ED, I might add). Today's alpha offerings aren't your father's skimpy line-ups of a 7x42 Dialyt or 10x40 B/GA or 8x56 B/GA.
I think what we have seen over the past 10 years or so is the establishment of New World Order in Sports Optics. As much as it pains me to admit it since it might fan the fire of the Defenders, Swaro has established itself on the top of the Pyramid. As we know from examples in Egypt, pyramids last a long time and do not topple easily.
For those like Steve C. who don't already own any alphas, and have deep pockets from selling pricey organic produce and beef, Zeiss has some very intriguing offerings in the HT and SF, but note that even Steve is leaning toward Swaro in his percentages (my guess it's the hunter in him).
I'll stick with my "big assumption" that most SV EL and SLC HD owners will not likely switch brands to Zeiss, but rather Zeiss's customers at the top end will come from those who either don't own alphas or own very old ones and are looking to upgrade to something new. You don't need "time will tell" when you have precognition like I do. :smoke:
Where Zeiss is most competitive is at the second tier level with the Conquest HD line. Heck, that bulletproof video even had me thinking about buying one, and I usually don't even think twice about closed bridge roofs.
Swaro has nothing to compete with the Conquest 8x and 10x42 HD at that price point. The 8x30 CL might compete with the 8x32 CHD, but I see more birders going for the CHD and hunters for the CL. Most birders prefer a wide FOV and a good close focus.
And Zeiss is now also competitive with its entry-level market with the Terra ED line. The Big Three have nothing at this level, the only competition from an alpha maker is from Nikon's 30mm M7s. I wonder if Zeiss will expand its Terra line like they did their other two lines to compete with Nikon's 8x and 10x56 Monarch 5s?
Even if Leica came out with its version of the EDG/SV EL/SF, it would be "too little, too late." Leica fans obviously don't care about edge performance or they would have bought one of the above instead. As the saying goes, "first come, first served."
Unless Leica breaks with tradition and uses Pergers in its new alpha line, I think UV HD+ is as good as it's going to get, which for some will be good enough, but not enough to topple Swaro from the top of the Pyramid.
Brock
Hi,
I agree with you on brand value of Swarovski. See I would be the most uneducated one in this forum as far as binoculars are concerned. Till six month back I didn't know of Swarovski, Leica and Zeiss for binoculars. I did my home work to find out about binoculars and surprisingly I feel strongest for Swarovski.
I have seen EL and HT and although HT was too good but I found there was something about EL. So it seems Swarovski has stronger brand value than Leica and ZEiss. This is how I experienced in my own case.
Sanjay
At last you've seen the light Brock.
You have been saying for ages that EL-owners won't swap to SF and I've been saying for ages that the SF will attract new customers. EL sales haven't stopped or Swaro would have gone out of business. They are being bought by people who haven't got one. As I have said so many time before: these people now have more choice.
As for me liking SF, well, you surely must have known long before SF was announced that I am very interested in Otters and Loons (that dive and resurface all over the place), the Scottish Western Isles (with big skies and seas) and dragonflies and butterflies and much more for which big fields of view are perfect.
Lee
I have the same problem with Mergansers, but I simply take the binoculars away from my eyes when they submerge, and put them back when they pop up to the surface.
Are you crazy, I'd never carry a bin that weighs 33 ounces.
Swarovski seems determined to stay on top of that fictional pyramid. They have a sale on the SV extending till November.
I got an e-mail from SONA today showing the potential savings to be had on all the new SVs below the current Retail pricing when they are purchased at US and Canadian dealers. Estimated savings will work out to more than 10%. For instance: $270.00 off on a $2499.00 10x50 SV.
Bob
I got an e-mail from SONA today showing the potential savings to be had on all the new SVs below the current Retail pricing when they are purchased at US and Canadian dealers. Estimated savings will work out to more than 10%. For instance: $270.00 off on a $2499.00 10x50 SV.
Bob
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brocknroller
porromaniac
There you go, Lee, living proof! :smoke:
Thanks for your comments, Sanjay.
<B>
brocknroller
porromaniac
Well, it takes me a while to see the light because I have a cataract growing in one eye.
I think you're still missing my point, which is/was/and shall be world without end, that there's approximately a gazillion SV EL owners out there ("they're selling like hotcakes"), and very few of them are going to sell their SV ELs to buy an SF, and those users are Zeiss's primary target group -- middle-aged hunters and birders with deep pockets and/or large credit lines who like open bridge roofs and EPs with field flatteners. And EDG owners ("open hinge" rather than open bridge now, but still ample room for your fingers).
Who are "these people" you talk about? I hope that's not like Ross Perot's "you people" gaff. The only people who want SV ELs who don't have them already are those people (not "these") who are still filling up their pickled pig's feet jars with quarters and saving up for one.
Given that it takes 10,400 quarters to buy an SV EL, by the time they save up, Swaro's "next big thing" will be out (and the quarter will be replaced by the 50 cents piece due to runaway inflation caused by optics manufacturers' relentless increases in prices and consumers getting less bang for their buck).
"These people" might be millennial hunters and birders who are just starting their careers and are waiting to pay off their exorbitant student loans before purchasing their first alpha. Or move up buyers, who now own second tier bins or off brand roofs such as Maven, who are Movin' On Up to East Side to that deluxe apartment in the sky-i.
Yes, they would have more choices, that's what I've already said as an argument against your "cyclic theory," but even though there are more choices today, Swaro is still capturing the lion's share on top of the pile. Hey, it's not like I got a dog in this race. I don't own a Swaro nor am I in close contact with the company's reps or bin designers. And I find some Swaro owners annoying, so I'm the last one to say this for any other reason other than it's simply true.
Again, it's not because Zeiss doesn't have competitive products (except in midsized premium roofs) but because its marketing dept. hasn't been as effective and because Zeiss's top bananas arrived after Swaro was already at the party and had filled most of the dance cards.
As to your love for Otters and Loons, I must have missed class that day, I don't recall your interest in them. I thought you and your wife were interested in wildflowers and were members of the Royal Society of British Wildflowers or something like that. :h?:
<B>
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Here we go again Brock.
Answer these.
Who were the people who last year walked into a shop or got on the internet and bought an EL? Answer: people who didn't have one.
Who are the people who tomorrow and next month or next year might walk into a shop or go on the internet and buy an EL? Answer: people who don't have one yet.
The market for alpha bins isn't saturated by ELs or any other model. Otherwise Swarovski would not be selling any ELs and SLCs today.
People who don't have alpha bins now have a wider choice. Thats the 'these people' to whom I was referring.
As for you missing out on my references to interests in otters etc. Well, there you go, I must have referred to this a good few dozen times. But hey, whats not to like about a big FOV?
Lee
Hi Maljunulo
Yes and that is perfectly possible when the bird is nearby or the water is flat and calm. Especially in glassy calm water it is easy to see them resurface. But when the water has waves in it and the tops of the waves are being blown off by a strong wind and the diving bird or otter or seal is some distance away, the unaided eye can't pick up the re-surfacing bird or animal. And this is especially true if the bird or animal only comes up briefly for air and a look around and then dives again and is moving away from you.
Lee
Proof of what?
That Swaro is a well established brand, with superb products and an excellent image and reputation?
And that this is a mountain that Zeiss has to climb?
I don't think this is news. :smoke:
Lee
Sandy Leng
Well-known member
Before laying down the cash for my 8x42 HT's I made sure that I had tried all the top Alpha bins. I am lucky that I live near the excellent Focus optics near Coventry where they let you loose on their little nature reserve with a range of bins to try.
The SF hadn't been released when I bought my HT's so I also am looking forward to a HT/SF comparison. I am very pleased with my choice, and the SF would have to be something very special for me to spend the extra to upgrade.
The one area where I think the HT excels is in poor conditions, such as a dismal winters day, or fading light approaching twilight. My guess is that the HT with its better light transmission and Abbe Konig prisms will come out on top against any other 8x42 Alpha when the light is poor.
Looking forward to your SF/HT comparison Lee
Sandy
The SF hadn't been released when I bought my HT's so I also am looking forward to a HT/SF comparison. I am very pleased with my choice, and the SF would have to be something very special for me to spend the extra to upgrade.
The one area where I think the HT excels is in poor conditions, such as a dismal winters day, or fading light approaching twilight. My guess is that the HT with its better light transmission and Abbe Konig prisms will come out on top against any other 8x42 Alpha when the light is poor.
Looking forward to your SF/HT comparison Lee
Sandy