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Eurasian Wren - can we do better? (1 Viewer)

colonelboris

colonelboris

Right way up again
Having loosely followed the splitting and renaming of Troglodytes troglodytes, I wondered if there was a better modifier than 'Eurasian'? While there's nothing wrong with the term, it seems a shame to use something so utilitarian on a wren. Looking into it a little, I've seen a couple of vague sources that say that they were known as Jenny Wren since the 1680s (at least in writing, so probably some time before), with 'Jenny' being a generic term for something female (e.g. spinning jenny), so there's one suggestion with plenty of precedent.
Are there any other names we could give to it? Would anyone want to? I understand entirely that it's the only one of its family in Eurasia and that it's perfectly valid, but aesthetically?
 

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Perhaps it should just be left Winter Wren (or Wren), Troglodytes troglodytes.

Until recently the AOU had two subspecies of Winter Wren in North America.

The western Winter Wren, Troglodytes troglodytes pacificus (now Troglodytes pacificus).

And the eastern Winter Wren, Troglodytes troglodytes hiemalis (now Troglodytes hiemalis).

See this from Sibley.

Anyway, it is a neat little bird!
 
Given that the Eurasian wren could be split relatively soon into multiple (I think I saw something saying as many as 7) species, I might leave it as is, and wait for a novel name for the subsequent Western European split
 
I tend to agree with Morgan, not only because of possible upcoming splits, but also because Jenny Wren sounds like it could really quickly become unpopular. Remember that the majority of the range is non-English speaking, and that Jenny Wren even in the UK could become bashed with being a sexist name, so it sounds like a non starter.

Niels
 
Jenny Wren is just horrible!

It's twee, folksy, 'cute' and anyone using it deserves to be battered to a pulp with a brick.

Merry Christmas.
 
What's more 'Jenny Wren' does not include the word 'rufous', surely a prerequisite for a new name these days.
As for being sexist, I trust we can look forward to a world list that will eschew all reference to words such as Tits and breasts.
B :)
 
My position on this and other Eurasian birds named in English before western explorers started giving analogue names with modifiers to anything remotely similar (American Robin for instance, which is long overdue for renaming as North American Red-breasted Thrush) remains the same: Wren is fine, only the late-comers need modifiers.

Wren, Robin, Wheatear, Cuckoo, Wigeon, Teal....... no need for any modifiers at all.

John
 
Nothing wrong with plain ole "Wren"...it has a scientific name to clarify it further as do all the other daft alterations/modifiers which half the UK birding world use and the other half don't. Bird names, as with most of our other English words are a product of natural evolved usage....trying to change them just causes confusion.
 
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jpoyner said:
Nothing wrong with plain ole "Wren"...it has a scientific name to clarify it further as do all the other daft alterations/modifiers which half the UK birding world use and the other half don't. Bird names, as with most of our other English words are a product of natural evolved usage....trying to change them just causes confusion.
Click to expand...

Perhaps less so in the case of "Wren", but many changes to English names in the IOC list came about because the 'plain ole' names were already a source of confusion, especially beyond UKIP-centric circles...

If birds had the decency to learn where national borders were, and not to cross them without complying with border regulations, then we might not have this topic...:t:

At least in Strathspey you have two of the few bird taxa that can truly be called 'British' ('Scottish') birds, so if you confine your argument to them, you have a very strong case indeed!:king:B :)

Merry Christmas and a Guid New Year!
MJB:-O
 
Farnboro John said:
My position on this and other Eurasian birds named in English before western explorers started giving analogue names with modifiers to anything remotely similar (American Robin for instance, which is long overdue for renaming as North American Red-breasted Thrush) remains the same: Wren is fine, only the late-comers need modifiers.

Wren, Robin, Wheatear, Cuckoo, Wigeon, Teal....... no need for any modifiers at all.

John
Click to expand...

I'd heartily agree with this sentiment except perhaps that I'd be inclined to add THE wren, THE Robin, etc.
 
There's a wealth of local names for the Wren with alternative forenames including Bobby, Kitty, Chitty, Juggy, Gilliver, Puffy and Puggie Wren. Jenny Wren is a bit twee, but I can't see any objections on the grounds of sexism being raised whilst we still call Lymnocryptes minimus Jack Snipe. The old name in Wiltshire (and elsewhere), Titty Wren, might be more problematical although the Devon name, Titty Todger, is even more so!
 
Wren might be a bit different.

For instance, if I recall correctly, the Caucasian Wren is a likely split

So you have at least 2 wrens in Europe

So when someone talks about Wren, are they talking about Wren in the sense of before or after the split? Could be an issue if you are birding in areas where both forms come into contact
 
Farnboro John said:
My position on this and other Eurasian birds named in English before western explorers started giving analogue names with modifiers to anything remotely similar (American Robin for instance, which is long overdue for renaming as North American Red-breasted Thrush) remains the same: Wren is fine, only the late-comers need modifiers.

Wren, Robin, Wheatear, Cuckoo, Wigeon, Teal....... no need for any modifiers at all.

John
Click to expand...

By this logic, the wren should have a Chinese name, as it was certainly named there first. Then us "latecomers" can just modify that name. The teal should probably have an Egyptian name - but then does the Eurasian or Cape Teal get the modifier?
 
Kirk Roth said:
By this logic, the wren should have a Chinese name, as it was certainly named there first. Then us "latecomers" can just modify that name. The teal should probably have an Egyptian name - but then does the Eurasian or Cape Teal get the modifier?
Click to expand...

But was it named in English...? Also, I rather think groups predating the Chinese and Egyptians would probably have named birds first - we'll have to get some paleo-etymologists to try to reconstruct those names.

Some nice points raised on here: can we ever have gender-neutral bird names and should we? (LOTS of work renaming -hen and -cock); do English names have to make sense to people with first languages other than English (which is surely impossible, anyway?); is there a defining limit on how sickly or twee a name can be before it overcomes the scientific principle of naming something unambiguously?

I think the RAOU had a good system in that they put all Australian bird names to a popular vote - useful when every state had a different name for the Magpie-lark. However, I can imagine it would be considerably harder for the IOC to keep everyone happy and I think they're doing a good job to do as well as they have done.

Cheers!

Tony
 
Putting stuff up for vote is an interesting idea, but it would probably absorb most of the time checklist committee have in just organizing those votes. We wouldn't have time to deal with taxonomic changes/splits/lumps, which arguably are more important in the long term for committee.
 
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