No, Bob, its potential baloney until its proven to be baloney.
Then its baloney.
Not before
Lee
Then its baloney.
Not before
Lee
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Leica Still Tops In My Book... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Mac308
- Start date
Rotherbirder
Well-known member
I really can't believe that you seriously believe what you've written here enough to have the temerity to share it with others; remember the old saying about 'adding 2+2 to make 5?' I happen to know several seasoned Leica users who have recently changed to Swarovski after many years but I wouldn't like to draw any serious conclusions from that, though I've never seen any of them sporting Swarovski crystal earrings! I also find your demeaning references towards Nikon users a trifle offensive. Please keep extreme optics snobbery off these pages! I use Swarovski bins over Leica purely because they suit me better optically and ergonomically, yet I prefer Leica scopes to Swarovski; live and let live say I.
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No, Bob, its potential baloney until its proven to be baloney.
Then its baloney.
Not before
Lee
Unfortunately it retains the potential to ultimately become more baloney. You see Lee, everyone is entitled to their own baloney but not to their own facts.B
Baloney washes down easier than facts which is why it is more popular. I recommend always carrying around a Swarovision in case one runs into a German restaurant so one can order ring baloney with a good beer in honor of the "Absam" ring. 3
Bob
CloseFocus
Well-known member
What reference to Nikon users are you talking about?
As to the post I made, I am merely theorizing why Swarovski sells more binos than Leica, something that seems to prove some kind of point to many Swaro fans. The topic of the original post should be considered here. If many people think Swaros aren't as well built or designed as the Leicas, or that Swarovision is, for lack of a more diplomatic word, a "gimmick," they do so because they want to know in advance before they spend thousands on their next binocular.
When I first looked through a Swarovision bino I was highly impressed, and actually spent some time looking for a good deal on a new 8x32. Then I started reading some criticisms on this site. I had the habit, like many others, of testing a bino by focusing on a distant object and looking for detail. But the next time I tested a Swaro I did some panning as well, and I instantly saw what the critics meant. I am now the happy owner of an 8x32 Ultravid, and grateful that there are people who are willing to give their honest opinions.
If someone is looking to buy a high end binocular they should be armed with all the information they can get. I know now that Swarovision is not my cup of tea. The next time I'm at an optics fair I can save some time and go straight to the Zeiss table if I want to compare brands.
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NDhunter
Experienced observer
If you like your Leica binoculars, that is fine with me. You are out of line
here, and I have not found any Swarovski owners that are not happy with
the build quality. Not as well built as a Leica, give me a break.
All of the top binoculars will have their positives and
some faults in certain areas.
As far as Leica, from what I have gathered, they are not fully waterproof,
as witness the binocular test that Allbinos performed this past year.
It was well hashed out on here, so read and learn.
They did not pass the leak test.:eek!:
That deserves a poor grade in any case.
The other thing Leica needs to improve is warranty, they do not cover
a preowned model for anything. Zeiss, Nikon and Swarovski have a
limited lifetime warranty, and that goes for preowned.
That means a lot to many users. It seems you were looking to have
some fun with your thoughts, and good for you.
I do have a recommendation for those thinking about buying a Leica
they do have some other important issues to think about.
Jerry
Jerry: Leica's camera division has never been "trying to play catch up". They have been designing and marketing for a niche market, just as they did with film cameras from the 1970's-2000. It's worked for them. Leica hasn't tried to compete directly with Nikon or Canon since the late 1960s.
I don't think Leica sells the finest cameras in the world, as they have
been trying to play catchup for 10 years or so now.
What is known, is Swarovski sells more of just the Swarovision binocular
models each year, than the entire number of Leica binoculars, spotters,
riflescopes, etc. does each year.
You can check with each maker, but those numbers will be close.
If you have numbers that differ, please put them out here.
Jerry
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That's a great point. Many folks just swallow the marketing and don't try anything else. Same with Rolex watches. A Vacheron Constantin makes a Rolex look like a Casio, but many people out there "know" a Rolex is the best watch made...
NDhunter
Experienced observer
Paul:
Tell us more about the Leica cameras. Are they of good quality, and
are they waterproof ?
Jerry
LOL, OK Bob, you got me there :t:
Unfortunately it is unlikely we will ever get our hands on good data to cast light on who is selling how many and where.
Dealer comments are interesting of course but aren't necessarily representative of what is going on overall.
And personally I prefer my baloney accompanied by German Weissbier Hefe with the sediment poured in too B
Lee
Unfortunately it is unlikely we will ever get our hands on good data to cast light on who is selling how many and where.
Dealer comments are interesting of course but aren't necessarily representative of what is going on overall.
And personally I prefer my baloney accompanied by German Weissbier Hefe with the sediment poured in too B
Lee
Unfortunately it retains the potential to ultimately become more baloney. You see Lee, everyone is entitled to their own baloney but not to their own facts.B
Baloney washes down easier than facts which is why it is more popular. I recommend always carrying around a Swarovision in case one runs into a German restaurant so one can order ring baloney with a good beer in honor of the "Absam" ring. 3
Bob
Pinewood
New York correspondent
LOL, OK Bob, you got me there :t:
Unfortunately it is unlikely we will ever get our hands on good data to cast light on who is selling how many and where.
Dealer comments are interesting of course but aren't necessarily representative of what is going on overall.
And personally I prefer my baloney accompanied by German Weissbier Hefe with the sediment poured in too B
Lee
Lee,
A slice of lemon, at least in the summer, works well with Weissbier or Weitenzbier. Actually, the sediment is not poured in , rather it is unfiltered.
Happy bird watching,
Arthur B):
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Pinewood
New York correspondent
Hello Paul,
That Austrian brand is actually a very good binocular, in the same league as Zeiss and Leica. Leica binoculars are one of the top choices for binoculars but in that league, personal preferences trump anything on paper. Absolute watertight integrity was never a concern for those who were enthusiastic about the Nikon SE.
The Rolex™ is a very rugged watch and the Submariner model suits those who obsess over a waterproof watch. The Vacheron Constantin is a far superior timepiece and far more elegant than any Rolex.
I gave my Rolex watch to my brother, who was very impressed, as it was too clunky. large and heavy, for me. I sold off my two Porro binoculars made by that Austrian company. Yet, I still have Leica BN and my Vacheron.
Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:
Hi Art
I will have to give your slice of lemon a try out, if it ever gets warm enough this year B
About the sediment: some folks pour this style of beer very gently so as not to disturb the sediment at the bottom of the bottle. I prefer to give the bottle a gentle swirl near the end of pouring to lift the sediment and pour it into the glass with the last of the beer.
It works for me:smoke:
Lee
jan van daalen
Well-known member
LOL, OK Bob, you got me there :t:
Unfortunately it is unlikely we will ever get our hands on good data to cast light on who is selling how many and where.
Dealer comments are interesting of course but aren't necessarily representative of what is going on overall.
And personally I prefer my baloney accompanied by German Weissbier Hefe with the sediment poured in too B
Lee
Holy Cow,
Just got back from the IWA and missing all this fun on BF over my favorite subject8-P
OK, I'm just a very small dealer from an even smaller country (satisfied?) but we did win a lot of medals on the Olympics so we do something right.
As far as I know, the big three compare their salesnumbers and doublecheck the competitors data with the salesresults from different shops.
So, THEY know the complete story.
Being on a meeting where Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski reps were present, this item came up and the response of Blue and Red on the outcome that Green sells best was that this was only logic because the R&D budget of Swarovski is higher than the budget of Zeiss and Leica together, so sales reflects this.
Looking at my tiny little contribution to their welth in the last 10 years, I can frankly say that Swaro beats the rest by far.
Looking in the field (presence reflects sales) it is the same.
To me, this is proof enough.
The IWA was superb. About 45 optic brands with their complete gamma. The color of the "English Racing Green" Leica Ultravid limited series is just the same color of the green version years ago. This wasn't even old wine in new sacs, even the sac was very old. Picture followes on wednesday.
Bushnell will drop their prices in Europe with 20%. The Legend HD 8x42 still costs here 429,00 (was 549,00) from now on.
Didn't I read somewhere on BF it was $229,00 in the US?:-C
Jan
Hermann
Well-known member
Of course Zeiss and Leica *know* they're behind Swarovski at the moment. They've known that for years. The big question is whether they'll have the will (and the money) to get back into the game. At least Zeiss seems to be making an effort now, with Leica I'm not so sure. It ain't gonna be easy after starving your R&D of funds for a decade or so.
Any new from the smaller players? Like Docter?
Hermann
jan van daalen
Well-known member
Hermann,
Dr had no new models on the stand.
The open hinge 8x42ED was presented as "Weitblick" but 115 meters is no Weitblick in my book.
Steiner had a Nighthunter 8x30 Porro with built in rangefinder for the serious night hunting (?). If they would have done that in the Xtreme 8x56, it would have made sense!
Mmmmm, other small players...:smoke:
I looked through the HT54 and finally Swaro gets serious competion on the 56 field. The FL 56 looses it on balance, grip and housing. Those days are gone.
It is bright as hell, with a balance thats makes if feels like a compromise between a 42 and a 50, only the fosussing knob was so smooth, even the very tender fingers of Brock would loose them.
It is always fun to have all the "serious" optic brands in walkingdistance to compare.
Jan
Hi Jerry: That's a long discussion indeed. Leica's claim to fame (after the 1930s- early '40s era of simply making great film cameras for the newly standardized 35mm format) was making tough, reliable rangefinder cameras with a great set of available interchangeable lenses, but at a premium price. Their film cameras remain sought after. Their digital cameras, although quite expensive compared to other similar models, have always offered a big set of features (like RAW capture even in their lower-range point-and-shoots), and the M series of digital cameras allowed many photographers who had built up a collection of compatible lenses to keep using them. Leica cameras are both capable tools and luxury items.
brocknroller
porromaniac
Amen, brother. However, there are none so zealous as new converts, as witnessed on the CL Pocket "best fest" thread.
As to the Swirlvision, perhaps there's a learning curve to this. Nikon's first attempt at a flat field roof also produced "rolling ball." But with their next effort, the EDG, they produced a more balanced distortion like the SE series. They also reduced the CA. I'd like to think that all my griping about those two design "flaws" helped, but probably not.
According to Holger, a Swaro rep said that the company is introducing a more balanced distortion to the "mustache effect" in recent production runs, and the 32mm model does seem to have gained more acceptance even among those who see RB in the 8.5x model. So we might eventually see something closer to the distortion balance of the EDG in future SV ELs (or whatever they will call the next gen.).
I wouldn't call the use of field flattners a "gimmick" like CAL, otherwise, I'd have to say the same thing about the EL's open bridge design. I like the open bridge and given the robust sales of the ELs, apparently so do a lot of others (it's also praised frequently in professional reviews). If people didn't go for it, Swaro would have dropped the open bridge design.
In any case, Swaro will never overcome my chief objection to the ELs - they are too damned expensive! That's only going to get worse in the future. In 5 to 10 years, any color Leica, Swaro or Zeiss alpha roof will be considered a "boutique" bin.
Brock
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Mac308
Well-known member
Brock, I like the bulk of the post you wrote, but will dissent on this item... one can be a gimmick, while the other is not.
I like the open bridge, but let's face it, it could easily have been a move on Swaro's part to physically/visually set themselves apart from the competition.
Best,
Brad
According to m4/3 rumors, there will be a new format of mirrorless cameras out soon, designed and underwritten by Leica but actually built by Panasonic (who for m4/3 has built lenses with the Leica brand for a while). The new Leica mirrorless will be a larger sensor than the m4/3 but how much larger is not known at the moment. Possibly a competitor to the FF Sony mirrorless?
Niels
brocknroller
porromaniac
Same old Swaro straw man argument from Jan the Salesman.
Sales numbers alone prove nothing. GM outsells every other brand except Toyota, but that alone doesn't mean GM products are better than their competitors. Honda beats GM in reliability, longevity, gas mileage, safety, and just about every other metric except trucks.
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