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Checklist of the birds of the Western Palearctic (EBN Italia) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MarcelHaas
- Start date
Yesterday I was talking with Dominic Mitchell about *Eurasian Penduline Tit subspecies expecially *jaxartica, which occurs from the E Ural Mountains eastwards into Central Asia. We would have assumed this range is just outside the WP boundary, if this is taken to be as per*BWP. In doing our EBN checklist we found jaxartica in AERC taxa as a winter struggler in WP . Moreover I could find a reference in a Dutch Birding issue (online at http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j...DERBPH4GueNcYRuVw&sig2=FkhlevpwGUdOQdwElOKgIg). At page 178 you can read all three Asian ssp can spend their winter in WP, quoting Turkey, Israel and Iraq. Aside from this paper, Harrap and Quinn (1996) and HBW, we still find hard evidence lacking for wintering jaxartica. It seems it is not listed for Turkey (Kirwan 2008), the Caucasus (various sources) or Israel (Shirihai 1995). Lars Svensson says jaxarticus is extralimital and has not been found within Western Palearctic.
Is there anybody aware of any definite records of this subspecies inside Cramp's boundary?
Is there anybody aware of any definite records of this subspecies inside Cramp's boundary?
Which definition of the WP is being used in this discussion? Is Iran incorporated?
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Richard Klim
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The EBN Italia WP Checklist follows the BWP definition.
This is the map given in the the spreadsheet (worksheet 4): commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWestern_palearctic.png
Okay, thanks.
Have never understood how Iran (especially the north coast, but basically all except the south-east corner beyond Bandar Abbas) can be considered anything but Western Palearctic.
Richard Klim
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The DB WP list now includes Iran and the entire Arabian Peninsula (as per the forthcoming HWPB):
- van den Berg 2014 (Dutch Birding bird names)
Far better on both counts, I'd say.
Sorry for thread deviation. Was going to add comments on Penduline Tit etc, but all my comments relate to areas beyond the thread's WP limits :t:
Richard Klim
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Remiz pendulinus jaxarticus
My guess is that AERC TAC 2003 perhaps just assumed (following BWP?) that the migratory movements of jaxarticus would surely result in at least occasional occurrence in the WP, given the proximity of its breeding range to the WP boundary.
But I suspect that in practice it would be difficult to definitively identify an extralimital individual, except by a ringing recovery.
Gianluigi,
My guess is that AERC TAC 2003 perhaps just assumed (following BWP?) that the migratory movements of jaxarticus would surely result in at least occasional occurrence in the WP, given the proximity of its breeding range to the WP boundary.
But I suspect that in practice it would be difficult to definitively identify an extralimital individual, except by a ringing recovery.
Pierre-André
Member
hi all
haven't followed this discussion until tonight but was directed to it by Graeme.
Regarding the questions discussed above (in no particular order):
Daurian Partridge: to be removed. there is no population either in Ukraine or russia. I extensively corresponded with russian and ukrainian ornithologists when preparing the AERC TAC checklist (recent versions) and all were unanimous that no population has ever established (at least for long) and the species is not on the European list.
Black-headed Caspian tit: not split by AERC TAC yet but ever if it were would not be included. the supposed hybrid population in Ural detla seems to be based on very discutable info and current Kazakh authorities do not map macronyx as ever approaching the Ural delta. This is been confirmed to me by Askar Isabekov (per email) and can be found in http://www.birds.kz/species.php?species=549&l=en. I know many authorities report a taxon of the macronyx group to hybridize with a taxon of the pendulinus tit in the Ural delta but i suggest this should be considered as doubtfull in light of recent info fromKazakhstan. anyone reading Russian can found more info in Коваленко А.В. О каспийском и балхашском ремезах// Казахстанский орнитологический бюллетень 2006. Алматы, 2007. С. 170-171.
Портенко Л.А. Обзор форм палеарктических ремезов [Remiz pendulinus (L.)] и их таксономическая оценка// Труды зоол. ин-та Академии Наук СССР. Вып. XVIII. Стр. 459-492.
Please let me know what's in there if you do...
the situation in Azerbaidjan is even more confusing. My suggestion is therefore NOT to include Black-headed Penduline tit in the WP list until better evidence is available.
Riparia chinensis: with all due respect to Chris B and Yoan P i'm not aware of any official decision by the IRDC regarding this taxon. Last time i corresponded with the IRDC on this subject (25/11/2012) the IRDC had not examined this record and not issued any official statement (as per Avner Cohen, IRDC secretary). On the contrary, the IRDC commented on his lack of info on this record. The best solution is probably to wait until Lars and Hadoram publish their book and see if they include the record or not. All i can say is that last time i asked Lars he seemed to imply that both him and Hadoram might not be totally supportive of this record any more. Certainly better to wait or ask Hadoram directly, but no IRDC decision as far as i'm aware. I would recommend ommiting this taxon in the meantime.
Chilean Flamingo and Yellow-headed amazon are not on the German cat C list and are unlikely to enter soon. It's not only a problem of duration of breeding in the wild, it's also that the German avifaunistic committee is reluctant to include on the German list these species as long as they maintain a single colony. I think the Germans are perfectly right and neither of these species should be admited on the WP list as long as they do not expand. In any case, i think they should not be on the WP list as long as they are not on any national list, as is the case currently.
And the Arabian Golden Sparrow record from Kuwait is as good as they get
(honnestly, i have absolutely no problem with that one)
All the very best
PAC
haven't followed this discussion until tonight but was directed to it by Graeme.
Regarding the questions discussed above (in no particular order):
Daurian Partridge: to be removed. there is no population either in Ukraine or russia. I extensively corresponded with russian and ukrainian ornithologists when preparing the AERC TAC checklist (recent versions) and all were unanimous that no population has ever established (at least for long) and the species is not on the European list.
Black-headed Caspian tit: not split by AERC TAC yet but ever if it were would not be included. the supposed hybrid population in Ural detla seems to be based on very discutable info and current Kazakh authorities do not map macronyx as ever approaching the Ural delta. This is been confirmed to me by Askar Isabekov (per email) and can be found in http://www.birds.kz/species.php?species=549&l=en. I know many authorities report a taxon of the macronyx group to hybridize with a taxon of the pendulinus tit in the Ural delta but i suggest this should be considered as doubtfull in light of recent info fromKazakhstan. anyone reading Russian can found more info in Коваленко А.В. О каспийском и балхашском ремезах// Казахстанский орнитологический бюллетень 2006. Алматы, 2007. С. 170-171.
Портенко Л.А. Обзор форм палеарктических ремезов [Remiz pendulinus (L.)] и их таксономическая оценка// Труды зоол. ин-та Академии Наук СССР. Вып. XVIII. Стр. 459-492.
Please let me know what's in there if you do...
the situation in Azerbaidjan is even more confusing. My suggestion is therefore NOT to include Black-headed Penduline tit in the WP list until better evidence is available.
Riparia chinensis: with all due respect to Chris B and Yoan P i'm not aware of any official decision by the IRDC regarding this taxon. Last time i corresponded with the IRDC on this subject (25/11/2012) the IRDC had not examined this record and not issued any official statement (as per Avner Cohen, IRDC secretary). On the contrary, the IRDC commented on his lack of info on this record. The best solution is probably to wait until Lars and Hadoram publish their book and see if they include the record or not. All i can say is that last time i asked Lars he seemed to imply that both him and Hadoram might not be totally supportive of this record any more. Certainly better to wait or ask Hadoram directly, but no IRDC decision as far as i'm aware. I would recommend ommiting this taxon in the meantime.
Chilean Flamingo and Yellow-headed amazon are not on the German cat C list and are unlikely to enter soon. It's not only a problem of duration of breeding in the wild, it's also that the German avifaunistic committee is reluctant to include on the German list these species as long as they maintain a single colony. I think the Germans are perfectly right and neither of these species should be admited on the WP list as long as they do not expand. In any case, i think they should not be on the WP list as long as they are not on any national list, as is the case currently.
And the Arabian Golden Sparrow record from Kuwait is as good as they get
(honnestly, i have absolutely no problem with that one)
All the very best
PAC
Pierre-André
Member
PS sorry for terrible editing of the message... it's a mess... but i'm sure you can still get the point.
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
It's fine, thanks, except for one non-English word - "discutable". What does that mean, please?
Paul Clapham
Well-known member
It's the French word for "questionable".
Peter Kovalik
Well-known member
Kazakhstan's Ornithological Bulletin
Казахстанский орнитологический бюллетень is available to read [here]
Казахстанский орнитологический бюллетень is available to read [here]
Pierre-André
Member
Thanks Peter but my Russian is total crap (best I can do is interpret road signs for city names). If you can read it could you post a summary of that it says about macronyx in Kazakhstan?
Thanks in advance
Pierre
Thanks in advance
Pierre
Peter Kovalik
Well-known member
I hope you will understand my English.
Summary of Коваленко А.В. О каспийском и балхашском ремезах// Казахстанский орнитологический бюллетень 2006:
Remiz pendulinus (macronyx) ssaposhnikowi (occurence in Lake Balkhash region) was considered as a synonym of Caspian Remiz pendulinus caspius but there are differencies – size (caspius is smaller), ssaposhnikowi has thicker beak, legs and claws and shorter tails... Nests of caspius are similar to nests of pendulinus (woods, borders of reed bed), but ssapohnikowi is obligate reed nester (in the midst of reed bed). Connection of blackheaded neglectus and macronyx is maybe incorrect because neglectus is not reed nester.
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jurek
Well-known member
I think several more African raptors and many other Sahel birds are likely to be vagrants to the southern WP. African Fish Eagle, Harrier-Hawk, Beaudoin's Snake Eagle, African Swallow-tailed Kite, Lizard and Grasshopper Buzzards, Red-necked Falcon... how many birders cover Southern Egypt and South Morocco?
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