Ruddy duck cull £3.3 million - thoughts (1 Viewer)

hil5 · Nov 14, 2005

Hi

As most of you know the government under pressure from RSPB and WWT have announced £3.3 miilion towards the further cull of the ruddy ducks. They breed with the rare Spanish whie-headed duck.

I like the ruddy duck and don't wish it to be culled further. If the ruddy duck didn't have a blue bill it'd be protected more!

Surely we should concentrate protecting the white-headed duck's habitat. Is a cull of this size really needed?

A lot of "our" migrating birds get shot in Spain - can this be stopped too.

I'd be interested in yoru thoughts on this.

If you feel strongly write to the RSPB and WWT

Jane Turner · Nov 14, 2005

I have real problems with this issue - having very strong views on both sides of the debate.

My biggest concern about the cull is the disturbance it will cause and possible ineptitude with which it is likely to be carried out with. Wouldn't fancy bing a Slav grebe for instance!

My biggest concern about not carrying out a cull is the removal of a native species from Europe.

If.. and it is a big if, it was possible to guarantee the removal of every NW European Ruddy - I'd say go for it.

If Ruddy Ducks had made it here under their own steam I think I'd be advocating letting nature take its course.

I think in the end I would like to see the problem turned round.... Its curretly treated as prevent the Ruddy Ducks meeting the White-heads by shooting them. I'd rather see it as prevent the White-heads from meeting the Ruddies by use of an extensive captive breeding programme.. and see what happens in the field.

John Butler · Nov 14, 2005

Jane Turner said:
I have real problems with this issue - having very strong views on both sides of the debate.

I think in the end I would like to see the problem turned round.... Its curretly treated as prevent the Ruddy Ducks meeting the White-heads by shooting them. I'd rather see it as prevent the White-heads from meeting the Ruddies by use of an extensive captive breeding programme.. and see what happens in the field.

Hi Jane.

A reasonable point, but would an extensive captive breeding programme of White-headed Ducks actually stop Ruddy Ducks from getting into Spain and hybridizing with our pure ducks? Surely it would just give the Ruddies even more chances of inter-breeding if they are not controlled.

Hi Hil5.

We would all like to see the shooting of migrating birds stopped, in whichever country it occurs. However, Spain is nowhere near as bad as many other countries in this respect and some measures are being used to try to prevent this from happening.

Spain has a very long hunting history and it is almost impossible to persuade a life-long hunter that he is doing wrong. Even the very slim chance of being caught and prosecuted will not change their attitude.

Making it illegal will never stop the determined hunter.

Change will eventually come with the education of the young people, but many of these, who already regard shooting/trapping as wrong, are in conflict with their parents/families, who try to pass on their hunting traditions.

Regards from Doñana.

John.

Jane Turner · Nov 14, 2005

John

I was thinking of ensuring that there was a suitably large gene pool of pure WHD kept in captivity as an insurance policy to ensure that the species survives whatever happens.

russkie · Nov 14, 2005

i am agaist the cull completely

when people say that it is killing off the population of white-headed , its not as if they are physicallly brutally murdering them , its just a case of genetics in the end.
let nature take its course, who knows what other cases of species dying out happened before man decided he had a right to play god - and i know some of you are probably saying man was responsible for the ruddy/ white headed scenario, but lets just allow it to run its course.
same with those fisherman who want to kill cormorants just cos they are better at fishing !!!!!!!!!!!!

Jane Turner · Nov 14, 2005

russkie said:
i am agaist the cull completely

when people say that it is killing off the population of white-headed , its not as if they are physicallly brutally murdering them , its just a case of genetics in the end.

The trouble is the end result is the same.

I'd like to see a major DNA study of the Ruddies that are getting to Spain to see where they are coming from and what age class is involved. That might lead to a less of a blanket cull way to keep them in check.

Sandra (Taylor) · Nov 14, 2005

Ruddies

Here! Here! I too say let nature take its course. But I'm afraid the cull has been taking place for some time now. I don't know why the RSPB didn't list en to a great portion of its million members and take a stand on this. But they think they know best!!....

Sandra

Dave J · Nov 14, 2005

Sandra (Taylor) said:
Here! Here! I too say let nature take its course. But I'm afraid the cull has been taking place for some time now. I don't know why the RSPB didn't list en to a great portion of its million members and take a stand on this. But they think they know best!!....

Sandra

Hi Sandra

It seems a strange thing to say " let nature take it's course ".
There is nothing remotely natural about Ruddy Ducks occuring in Britain, they are an introduced species. As much as i like Ruddies, they were a favourite of mine in my early birding days in Essex, i would never consider their well-being more important than white-headed duck in Europe i'm afraid.
Although it has not been proved that any of the Ruddy Ducks in Spain originate from here ( As has been pointed out by Lee Evans in his slightly hysterical campaign on surfbirds ), it must be considered fairly likely that atleast some do.

Dave

deflore · Nov 14, 2005

I think this is all interesting. I live in the United States and have seen Ruddies here. I was just confused by one thing. What is a cull?

saluki · Nov 14, 2005

deflore said:
I think this is all interesting. I live in the United States and have seen Ruddies here. I was just confused by one thing. What is a cull?

I don't suppose it is a cull really, which would signify a reduction in the population to a managable level - it's the extermination of the Ruddy Duck in the UK. I don't really have a problem with this - they aren't under threat in their native country - I just wonder about the practicalities of a cull? Surely it relies on the co-operation of farmers, landowners, water authorities, etc. to allow the people doing the culling access to land? Shooting is going to be difficult for a variety of reasons - and I share Jane's concerns about the ability of the 'marksmen' to identify their quarry - what criteria are they using when choosing these people I wonder, an ability to shoot straight or to recognise their quarry - the two don't always go hand in hand.

saluki

London Birder · Nov 14, 2005

I'm in favour (at the moment) but in no way up to speed on the issue ... what I'd like to know is are there any ringing recoveries which definately point towards the British Ruddy population getting into Spain?

I also agree about the disturbance factor and identification issues and the quality of marksmanship etc

Strandman · Nov 14, 2005

Sandra (Taylor) said:
Here! Here! I too say let nature take its course. But I'm afraid the cull has been taking place for some time now. I don't know why the RSPB didn't list en to a great portion of its million members and take a stand on this. But they think they know best!!....

Sandra

I am pro cull- I think there is an obligation to attempt it and impressed that the RSPB/WWT have not er ducked the issue. They face some tough decisions and at times have to do things not all their members would be happy with.

To my way of thinking there is something magical about a W-h D lurking about in a Mediterranean marsh. Ruddy Ducks may be cuter looking (to some) and more accessible, but they just aren't the real thing.

While we are at it, hopefully someone is going to get cracking on removing Black Swans before a messier and more extensive exercise is required in ten or twenty years time.

russkie · Nov 14, 2005

are all these pro cull people going to suggest a wholesale cull of grey squirrels too ?

and whilst we are about it how about a boycott of supermarkets which have killed off the small shops --- or am i being a little flippant here?

Jane Turner · Nov 14, 2005

If Grey Squirrels were seriously threatening to render Red Squirrels extinct then yes I'd be advocating a cull.

Strandman · Nov 14, 2005

Jane Turner said:
If Grey Squirrels were seriously threatening to render Red Squirrels extinct then yes I'd be advocating a cull.

I thought they were being culled in a zone around the last few R Squirrel strongholds- to slow down or avoid transmission of parapox virus which now seems to be main factor in the final stage of the decline.

No doubt others more clued up than me, but I think that's the position.

Here we are:

"The North of England Red Squirrel Conservation Strategy is being launched by Red Alert North England, which is made up of wildlife trusts, the Forestry Commission and landowners.

The woodland areas chosen as reserves will be managed to support healthy populations of the creatures but will be less well suited to the larger grey squirrels.

Targeted grey squirrel control will take place in "buffer zones" surrounding the reserves to protect the reds. "

It will interesting to see whether as a by-product of this exercise any bird species show improved breeding success in the buffer zones.

London Birder · Nov 14, 2005

plenty of Ruddies, Grey Squirrels and small shops round here ....

I suspect the Ruddies will dwindle however

Gus Horsley · Nov 14, 2005

The idea of culling doesn't sit well with me on ethical grounds. I'm of the opinion that, once we start playing god, we are setting potentially dangerous precedents. After all, and this is going to raise some hackles, there was a mass persecution of Jews in this country centuries ago, largely because they were "introduced". Ruddy ducks are here due to human intervention, as are grey squirrels. Why do we have this tendency to villify a particular species because it appears to be becoming too successful?

Gus

London Birder · Nov 14, 2005

I think the persecution of the Jews is a shockingly bad analogy ... (though I'm not shocked)

Gus Horsley · Nov 14, 2005

You're right, it is a shockingly bad analogy. It's the sort of thing I specialise in. It's known as monumental overkill. I've had a few posts like that...

Gus

London Birder · Nov 14, 2005

DEFRA's report here >

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/scientific/ruudy/ruddy1/index/htm

Edit: ok, should've known, my links never work

Ruddy duck cull £3.3 million - thoughts (1 Viewer)

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