Aglaeactis aliciae => Who the f... was Alice? (Smokie) (1 Viewer)

[Taphrospilus]

Once again I have some serious doubts what's written in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds on Aglaeactis aliciae. I do not see any realtionship with Osbert Salvin and Anita Alice Mathilde Robinson or Oscar Theodor Baron (1847–1926) the collector of this bird and this lady.

Of couse it is correct as in HBW Alive mentioned:

● Female eponym; dedication not given (Salvin 1896, Bull. Brit. Orn. Cl., 5, xxiv) (Aglaeactis).

The OD we can find here.

May Alice Dixon Le Plongeon (1851 – 1910) in Wikipedia. not be a candidate. I ask as here is written:

Alice's near contemporary, Caroline Salvin, described her stint with naturalist husband Osbert Salvin at Copàn in a diary, which was later circulated as A Pocket Eden: Guatemalan Journals, 1873-1874

 

[mb1848]

Discussed here previously .
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=265923&highlight=Oscar+Baron .
Not satisfactory that Alice's Sunbeam is missing its Alice.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

● Purple-backed Sunbeam Aglaeactis aliciae SALVIN 1896 a k a "Alice's Sunbeam"

She´s not on my list, but I would say that Dame Alice Mary Godman (1868–1944), second wife of Osbert Salvin's old friend Frederick DuCane Godman is an even more likely candidate (as James's "good guess" in thread Eponymical challenges, Post No. 6).

In any case I guess the truth will be very hard to find out, but who knows?

Good luck trying to find her!

PS. She might be "Living next door ..."

 

[Taphrospilus]

I think James might be right as in original description is written:

He obtained several specimens of both sexes, some of which he sent to Mr. Godman and others to Mr. Rothschild.

So probably Salvin received the bird from Godman.

Here we can find a plate of the hummer and if we read Barons following article here we know that Salvin mispelled the place the bird was collected. Suecha was in fact Succha.

 

[Rick Wright]

http://birdaz.com/blog/2013/09/05/different-bird-different-alice/

 

[Taphrospilus]

In fact a very detailed analysis. Only thing might need further investigation is the sentence:

and that they had one daughter, Viola.

Please look at my other thread here. So there might be more children of Salvin.

 

[Taphrospilus]

According Wikipedia:

In 1863, he married Caroline Octavia Maitland in Loughton, Essex. They had three daughters, Sybil Maitland Salvin (born 1867), Heloise Salvin (born 1875) and Viola Salvin (born 1878). Heloise Salvin married biologist John Edmund Sharrock Moore.

At least in accordance with here.

Here some additional information I found in the Internet on the relatives:

Caroline Octavia Salvin née Maitland (1838-1917)
Sybil Maitland Salvin (1867-1925)

According Archives of Natural History Vol 18, Issue 1 p. 33 (JAMES R. TROYER: On the name and works of J. E. S. Moore (1870–1947): cytologist, zoologist, explorer, and co-publisher of the term “meiosis”)

In 1904 Moore married Heloise Salvin, second daughter of the prominent natural history figure Osbert Salvin (1835-1898) and granddaughter of the well-known architect Anthony Salvin. The two had one son, and Heloise died in 1927.

Means Heloise Salvin (1875-1927)

Last but not least it could be according here and here

Viola Heathcote née Salvin (1878-1947) married 15. August 1913 with Reginald St. Alban Heathcote.

 

[Taphrospilus]

Anyway have some doubts on the other Alice in HBW Alive

The Richmond Index card records, “Possibly for Sallé’s mother” (who accompanied the entomologist Auguste Sallé on his expeditions) (Chlorostilbon).

Here she is named Catherine (Catherine Sallé née Caillard). I do not see any realtionship to her and Bourcier and Mulsant yet.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Martin, well spotted … and well questioned!

One or the other claim (or all!?) is obviously wrong. Compare with the following entry from today's HBW Alive Key:

catharinae
● Catharine Sallé (fl. 1840) mother of French entomologist and natural history dealer Auguste Sallé (syn. Mellisuga minima vieilloti).

... most likely a Latin version of the same Catherine, mother of the French naturalist (primarily an entomologist, but also ornithologist alt. malacologist) and collector Auguste Sallé (1820-1896). The latter is presented on quite an impressive (German) Wiki-page!

I doubt he had two mothers.

Who she was? I haven´t got a clue. I haven´t looked into it, more than this, this morning.
---

 

[Taphrospilus]

Does anyone know how to find Sallés parents from his birth certificate here page 26 somewhere here?

 

[Taphrospilus]

I have to come back on Sallés mother and maybe a french speaking person can translate. Here is written:

Je dédie cette charmante Cicindèle à Mme Catherine Caillard, veuve Sallé, par qui elle fut prise, sur la route de Mexico, pendant le mois de juin.

Question is if Caillard is her maiden name or married the widow Sallé a Mr. Caillard?

 

[Taphrospilus]

Mark, isn't it simply this (compiled) volume, of 1834-1835?

For example; on p. 372, in the text for [Cicindela] "Catharinæ" we find: "... Mme Catherine Caillard, veuve Sallé, par .." (Septembre 1835).

If relevant, of any help/use?

/B
--

Do we know the father of August Sallé? I just ask as I came again accross her in The Eponym Dictionary of Birds. Maybe a way to explore her birth/death dates. But I fear she is born in Paris (so her birth record may burnt down). No idea where she died (maybe even in Mexico?).

 

[PScofield]

Attached is his death certificate that gives some info

 

[PScofield]

Salle must have been quite remarkable he traveled to Louisianna when he was 15 with his mother (Unfortunately simple given as Madam Salle in the manifest).

She was Catherine Caillard 3 June 1788 -

the exact identity of his father is obscure.

He may have married as during a trip in the 1856s to the West Indies he is accompanied by his wife.

 

[mb1848]

Obcure indeed. Auguste Salle while young traveled around the new world with a mysterious M. Vasselet. And his mother the widow Salle .

 

[Taphrospilus]

And don't forget Louis Alexandre Auguste Chevrolat was Sallés godfather.

Anyway have some doubts on the other Alice in HBW Alive



Here she is named Catherine (Catherine Sallé née Caillard). I do not see any realtionship to her and Bourcier and Mulsant yet.

Maybe Alice was Sallés wife. OD here. But than they may have married earlier.

 

[Taphrospilus]

Could be that she died here p. 31 of 51 on 22. June 1846 in Paris 12. Arrondisement.

Catherine Caillard 3 June 1788

Where does this date come from?

 

[PScofield]

From here

FamilySearch.org

Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.

www.familysearch.org

I can corroborate.

 

[Taphrospilus]

I think the father was Caillard Jusaalier? So not the last name. Or did I get it wrong? In this case why should it be her?

 

[l_raty]

I think the father was Caillard Jusaalier? So nt the last name. Or did I get it wrong? In this case why should it be her?

The father is given as "michel caillard journallier" -- "michel" was his first name, "caillard" his last name, and "journallier" (day laborer, although I would nowadays spell this with a single l) his occupation.