Birdsong Apps Disrespectful to Birds (17 Viewers)

[AlfArbuthnot]

I wonder what the split is between Ornitholgists regarding their opinions of tape luring used by amateurs/general public. Does anyone have an idea ?

Judging by the major conservation charity's comments in the press on this story, I'd suggest it's a case of 'do what I say, not what I do'. They didn't find playback 'disrespectful' last year when they were belting it out to Baillon's and Spotted Crakes up and down the country. They had a different goal, but if it's harmful for photography then it must still be harmful for any other reason.

I'd like to know just how many have used tape luring in their research and observed detrimental effects such as the male alpha birds losing status due to their inability to drive off the other (taped) bird.

It would be difficult to quantify. The main effect they'd look for would be changes in survival or productivity, which after all is the bottom line for the population. If the population remains healthy, then is there really a problem? I have never read anything showing a population decline or breeding failure as an aside to playback.

It seems that the opposing camps here on this thread do agree that excessive use is not good...is this fair to say?

Semantics again. What is 'excessive' (how would we know? Dead bird?). What is 'harm'?

If there isn't then shouldn't people be consistent and say all tape luring is ok in the absence of concrete evidence ?

Probably depends on whether someone comes from a mindset of banning everything first and then licensing/allowing the bits they don't mind when evidence becomes available, or allowing everything and banning the bits they don't like when evidence becomes available. Not sure if that gets into deep topics such as free society and oppressive society. But some people just get a kick out of making other people do what they want, from what they think is their moral high ground. Perhaps some do this vicariously by projecting their sphere of personal offence on to other things (did you disrespect my wife? did you disrespect my religion? did you disrespect my football team? did you disrespect the birds on my reserve?)...

 

[A2GG]

Semantics again. What is 'excessive' (how would we know? Dead bird?). What is 'harm'?

I think idea of what is excessive and what is not and where to draw the line is something that we were trying to get across earlier. 'how would we know'...the point is we don't know entirely. Some decide to err on the side of caution and some decide not to worry until they have 100 percent proof.

So, question for both you and FUGL:

How much tape luring do you consider ok ? Do you consider all tape luring ok under any circumstances? Fugl says he wouldn't engage in 'excessive' tape luring. At least, I thought that's what he conveyed in an old post. What circumstances, if any, would you actually refrain from tape luring ? Just wondering what decisions you make and how you make them when out in the field birding as it relates to the bird(s).

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

How much tape luring do you consider ok ? Do you consider all tape luring ok under any circumstances?

I don't think anyone would consider anything to be ok under any circumstances.

What circumstances, if any, would you actually refrain from tape luring ? Just wondering what decisions you make and how you make them when out in the field birding as it relates to the bird(s).

I would stop once I had achieved what I want/need to achieve, which is usually visual or audible contact. I can't perceive many reasonable people continuing to use playback once the bird is in view, or after it leaves - it's a little like asking someone the same question over and over when you already have the answer. Birds can be smart, and in my experience they have a quite short reaction period to playback. They may react strongly for a few minutes, but then quickly lose interest. I guess they're not getting the correct cues, or possibly the quality of recordings is too poor to fool them completely; an earlier poster suggested that apps were more accurate and so a stronger lure than the human voice, but recordings and speakers do have limitations that birds seem to notice, and are not perfect reproductions by any means. One only has to think of the difference between a recording and a live concert, even within our narrower hearing range.

 

[fugl]

I think idea of what is excessive and what is not and where to draw the line is something that we were trying to get across earlier. 'how would we know'...the point is we don't know entirely. Some decide to err on the side of caution and some decide not to worry until they have 100 percent proof.

So, question for both you and FUGL:

How much tape luring do you consider ok ? Do you consider all tape luring ok under any circumstances? Fugl says he wouldn't engage in 'excessive' tape luring. At least, I thought that's what he conveyed in an old post. What circumstances, if any, would you actually refrain from tape luring ? Just wondering what decisions you make and how you make them when out in the field birding as it relates to the bird(s).

My answer to "when do I stop" is the same as Alf's, though I admit to having occasionally carried on to beyond what was strictly necessary for the ID or photograph. (And as an aside, I also agree with him that some birds quickly become habituated to playbacks and stop responding, though the readiness with which they do so varies a lot in my experience--both as between species and situationally--and I don't feel I have much of a handle on the phenomenon.).

So there it is, all very vague and unsatisfactory as far as some participants in this thread are concerned, I'm sure, but too bad. If err I must, I prefer to err on the side of bopping along like I always have rather than fall prey to excessive caution.

As for this thread, the repeating the same stuff over and over again stage was reached long ago so I'm taking this opportunity to bail out. Adios.

God, I hate the word "respect" as applied to wildlife!

 

[pppppvvvv]

Plus, in the UK, we have the Birdwatchers' code of conduct:

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/watchingbirds/code/welfare.aspx

Always a good reference if in doubt at all.

 

[A2GG]

I don't think anyone would consider anything to be ok under any circumstances.

Thanks to both of you for the insights. This tape luring is foreign to me and I've never really discussed it until this thread. I haven't yet come across any other birders tape luring and have only seen photos of scientists doing it. I have birdjam on my ipod touch , but it stays home.

Ok, so there are some circumstances where you feel that it's not ok to engage the bird(s). Could you provide an example of a circumstance which you would consider 'not ok' to play the recordings? Would it be out of some consideration for the bird(s) or is there another reason? and what would it be based on? Just trying to get a handle on where that line is drawn in your mind between acceptable tape luring and unacceptable. Since, I choose not to use any type of sound manipulation when birding (for reasons I've already stated) I'm curious to get a fuller perspective from the people who use it periodically, choosing when and when not to use it; how that is determined.

 

[A2GG]

So there it is, all very vague and unsatisfactory as far as some participants in this thread are concerned, I'm sure, but too bad. If err I must, I prefer to err on the side of bopping along like I always have rather than fall prey to excessive caution.

Yes indeedy...it's too vague for me, but I appreciate your response and being open. Just want to say that even though you and I have butted heads a bit lately I do always appreciate your posts in the bird ID, behavior, etc. forums...I've learned quite a bit from your posts.

 

[A2GG]

Plus, in the UK, we have the Birdwatchers' code of conduct:

http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/watchingbirds/code/welfare.aspx

Always a good reference if in doubt at all.

Yes, when I first got into bird watching I read the code of ethics put out by the ABA: http://www.aba.org/about/ethics.html

 

[Robin Edwards]

Ok, so there are some circumstances where you feel that it's not ok to engage the bird(s). Could you provide an example of a circumstance which you would consider 'not ok' to play the recordings? Would it be out of some consideration for the bird(s) or is there another reason? and what would it be based on? Just trying to get a handle on where that line is drawn in your mind between acceptable tape luring and unacceptable. Since, I choose not to use any type of sound manipulation when birding (for reasons I've already stated) I'm curious to get a fuller perspective from the people who use it periodically, choosing when and when not to use it; how that is determined.

I'm not a ringer/bander myself but I've seen tape luring used to great effect at roosts for birds like swallows and wagtails. As long as you agree that banding birds is not harmful to the birds then I don't see what difference playing the tapes make. At migration time, bird song is played continuously at hot-spots such as the ringing station in Eilat for instance.

Where would I think playing recordings would be unacceptable? Schedule 1 birds, breeding season, reserves where density of birders to birds is likely to be greatest, spring to mind. "Excessive" and prolonged use for photography might be another.

 

[A2GG]

I'm not a ringer/bander myself but I've seen tape luring used to great effect at roosts for birds like swallows and wagtails. As long as you agree that banding birds is not harmful to the birds then I don't see what difference playing the tapes make. At migration time, bird song is played continuously at hot-spots such as the ringing station in Eilat for instance.

Where would I think playing recordings would be unacceptable? Schedule 1 birds, breeding season, reserves where density of birders to birds is likely to be greatest, spring to mind. "Excessive" and prolonged use for photography might be another.

Is banding primarily used for research purposes? What type of certifications does one need if any to become a bander? I think both banding and tape luring is ok for scientific research since there's conservation goals in mind. That's the way I look at it.

 

[OsageArcher]

Is banding primarily used for research purposes? What type of certifications does one need if any to become a bander? I think both banding and tape luring is ok for scientific research since there's conservation goals in mind. That's the way I look at it.

Some of the people who have made the greatest advances in understanding various animals and plants were not certified and had no credentials, were not "researchers" except in an amateur sense, and may not have been "scientists" in any formal sense as we understand those words today. People like Audubon (who used a shotgun as a major tool to study birds), Fabre, Mendel come to mind and there are many others.

Modern field biologists not only use recordings, but may also use mist nets and traps ("humane" and otherwise). Those are certainly disruptive to say the least.

It sounds like you believe anyone who is not a "researcher" and who is not certified or credentialed, has no right to try to advance their personal knowledge or knowledge generally in a field of study using certain techniques. Oh, but if we call it "research" and you are credentialed or certified by some establishment, then it's OK...

 

[pppppvvvv]

Sounds like a good start to me.. Go and do your training and apprenticeship, learn under controlled conditions, and pass your exams. Then come back and we'll talk about you using these specialist tools. A bit like ringing.

 

[A2GG]

Some of the people who have made the greatest advances in understanding various animals and plants were not certified and had no credentials, were not "researchers" except in an amateur sense, and may not have been "scientists" in any formal sense as we understand those words today. People like Audubon (who used a shotgun as a major tool to study birds), Fabre, Mendel come to mind and there are many others.

Modern field biologists not only use recordings, but may also use mist nets and traps ("humane" and otherwise). Those are certainly disruptive to say the least.

It sounds like you believe anyone who is not a "researcher" and who is not certified or credentialed, has no right to try to advance their personal knowledge or knowledge generally in a field of study using certain techniques. Oh, but if we call it "research" and you are credentialed or certified by some establishment, then it's OK...

that's a good point. Audobon and those early researchers used methods that we would not approve of today. I believe Audobon himself in his later years had some regret or pause regarding how many birds he shot.
But, those were different times. I do take your point that amateurs can contribute. I'm just not sure how important tape luring is towards conservation or bird study when done to tick off a bird on a personal list or get a photograph. Reporting on e-bird.com , etc. are important contributions or research towards data, but we can get that from just birding without the recordings. I'm still working all of this out myself and that's why I decided, instead of just arguing my point, to also ask people who actually do the tape luring to give their insights on how they do it and to what extent, so that I can learn more about it. As I've stated before, I never was exposed to it.

 

[A2GG]

Sounds like a good start to me.. Go and do your training and apprenticeship, learn under controlled conditions, and pass your exams. Then come back and we'll talk about you using these specialist tools. A bit like ringing.

I'm inclined to agree (but still not totally sure) that perhaps there should be some type of license for bird watching, but it would be a hard sell and I'm sure never will happen.

 

[lmans66]

I'm inclined to agree (but still not totally sure) that perhaps there should be some type of license for bird watching, but it would be a hard sell and I'm sure never will happen.

You have to be kidding....

 

[pppppvvvv]

I was thinking more of a license to perform the more intrusive elements of the hobby, like there is for ringing.. a license for tape luring for example. Just a crazy off-the-wall idea. It's good to share these thoughts, often leads to good debate and surprising outcomes, or more pragmatic ideas.

 

[A2GG]

You have to be kidding....

I'm not totally sure really if I agree with it or not... but it was suggested by a couple of people.. I'm just entertaining the thought.
Maybe just to purchase a license for adults only (which would go towards conservation) like there is for fishing and perhaps there should be some regulations on certain practices like tape luring. I know it could get real muddled and perhaps it's a really bad idea...depends how it's done I guess. It would never get off the ground anyway.

 

[pshute]

Where would I think playing recordings would be unacceptable? Schedule 1 birds, breeding season, reserves where density of birders to birds is likely to be greatest, spring to mind. "Excessive" and prolonged use for photography might be another.

The "density of birders to birds" concept is an interesting one. One can easily see how many birders are around when you're there, but that's not necessarily the measure that the birds care about. I would have thought the number of birders per day per bird is important too, and that's very difficult for a visiting birder to estimate. I'm guessing that a single birder using playback per day, but every single day, might have more effect that a big burst of "Excessive and prolonged use for photography" once a month.

As I said, I'm just guessing there. My point is that this density thing is hard to estimate.

I came across this link to an article that mentions playback abuse by hunters:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/songbird-migration/franzen-text

Even as quail are becoming very difficult to find in much of Europe, the take in Egypt is increasing, due to the burgeoning use of playback technology. The best system, Bird Sound, whose digital chip holds high-quality recordings of a hundred different bird sounds, is illegal to use for hunting purposes in the EU but is nevertheless sold in stores with no questions asked. In Alexandria, I spoke with a sport hunter, Wael Karawia, who claimed to have introduced Bird Sound to Egypt in 2009. Karawia said he now feels “very bad, very regretful” about it. Normally, perhaps three-quarters of incoming quail fly over the mist nets, but hunters using Bird Sound can attract the higher flying ones as well; already all the mist netters in north Sinai are doing it, some of them in spring as well as fall. Hunters on Egypt’s large lakes have also begun to use Bird Sound to capture entire flocks of ducks at night.

It makes me wonder whether the birding apps with calls that are becoming common will have an effect that the authors never intended.

 

[fugl]

I came across this link to an article that mentions playback abuse by hunters:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/songbird-migration/franzen-text

It makes me wonder whether the birding apps with calls that are becoming common will have an effect that the authors never intended.

Well, that's scary. Makes me wonder if playback is ever used by hunters against songbirds in places where the latter are hunted?

 

[MJB]

It makes me wonder whether the birding apps with calls that are becoming common will have an effect that the authors never intended.

The Law of Unintended Consequences....:t:
MJB