Blue-crowned Motmot (2 Viewers)

[Daniel Philippe]

http://www.ornitologiacolombiana.org/oc8/Stiles.htm#1in

 

[Richard Klim]

In case anyone else makes the same mistake: having read the abstract, I was about to post some questions about the detailed contents of the paper, before I realised that there's free access to the PDF. |:d|

Richard

 

[njlarsen]

Thanks Daniel,
As Richard points out, it is great to have free access to a paper like this.

Gary Stiles mentions a work that is undergoing regarding the Mexican subspecies; does anyone know if that has come out yet?

thanks
Niels

 

[Mysticete]

So if the motmot is split, will the Trinidad form then be considered Trinidad's only "real" endemic? I know they have a endemic Piping-guan, but I recall reading elsewhere that it used to live on the mainland but was wiped out?

 

[Richard Klim]

Gary Stiles mentions a work that is undergoing regarding the Mexican subspecies; does anyone know if that has come out yet?

Niels, as you note, Stiles mentions: "ongoing studies by Mexican ornithologists appear to support species status for coeruliceps (A. Navarro in litt.)".

I wonder if this just refers to:

Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson 2004. An alternative species taxonomy of the birds of Mexico. Biota Neotropica 4(2).
http://www.biotaneotropica.org.br/v4n2/en/fullpaper?bn03504022004+en
[Momotus coeruliceps and M lessonii are suggested on p18.]​

Richard

 

[njlarsen]

The reference is given as "(A. Navarro in litt.)." so maybe going beyond the paper from 2004.

Thanks
Niels

 

[Dave B Smith]

So if the motmot is split, will the Trinidad form then be considered Trinidad's only "real" endemic?

I believe there is consideration being given for splitting the Tobago form but nothing about the Motmot on Trinidad.

 

[njlarsen]

I believe there is consideration being given for splitting the Tobago form but nothing about the Motmot on Trinidad.

The paper proposes to split the T&T Motmots as one unit without subspecies. The old ffrench guide also did not distinguish between birds from Trinidad or Tobago, both were placed in subspecies bahamensis.

cheers
Niels

 

[Rasmus Boegh]

While I haven't asked and therefore cannot say for certain what is referred to in this paper, there are people working on the Mexican taxa (i.e. not just the previously mentioned 2004 publication). As far as I know, no-one has ever split the populations on Trinidad and Tobago into separate taxa, and no evidence seems to support such a move.

The results in this paper are interesting, but overall follow the expected picture. I do wonder what various authorities will do with argenticinctus, as several Neotropical authorities have argued for requirering biological species to be monophyletic (despite strictly speaking not being a requirement in BSC). I also have to wonder where exactly the shift between the lessonii and subrufescens groups occurs in Panama. Quite some time ago I stumpled upon this individual labelled as being conexus (i.e. part of the subrufescens group), but being puzzled about its lessonii-like plumage I removed that label, and this paper appears to support my suspicion.

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=111178

Regardless, based on the map in the same paper, it really should be conexus (= subrufescens, per new taxonomy) in this part of Panama. Despite this being among the most commonly visited regions in Central America, xeno-canto currently doesn't have useful recordings that can help resolve the issue, and my own Panama experiance is very limited, but based on above photo it could well be that the two groups actually come into contact in Panama. Even if not in actual contact, they're separate by ~100 km at most and with no clear ecological barrier between them, as conexus (= subrufescens) has been recorded at least as far west as the Canal Zone. While I have no doubt about their validity as separate species, it would still be interesting to see what happens if in contact.

 

[njlarsen]

Thanks Rasmus, I will be looking forward to seeing what comes out of the Mexican work.

Re the situation in Panama, I just read up on the description in the old Ridgely and Gwynne, according to which the western birds (lessoni) are found east to at least Herrera, and where Canal Zone birds are said to give the single hoooot of conexus (= subrufescens, per new taxonomy). El Valle is quite precisely mid way between the two locations given above (which themselves are less than 150 km apart). So I guess that the photo just indicates that at least lessoni does occur in El Valle.

I have added a thread in the Panama forum to ask if anyone with local knowledge will comment.

Cheers
Niels

 

[Richard Klim]

Gary Stiles has now submitted a corresponding proposal (#412) to AOU-SACC to split Momotus momota into five species:
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop412.html

As discussed earlier, extralimital coeruliceps is split as a sixth species only implicitly, and M lessonii is also extralimital to SACC. It will be interesting to see how NACC handles this situation: if AOU votes to recognise M lessonii, then M coeruliceps must also be recognised.

Richard

 

[James Lowther]

Hello,
not sure if the links in this thread hold the key (but the one to the navarro paper doesn't work for me), but can anyone give me a rough idea of the relative distributions of coeruliceps and lessonii (groups?)?
particularly which forms occur in Belize and the Yucatan?
thanks,
James

 

[Richard Klim]

Hello,
not sure if the links in this thread hold the key (but the one to the navarro paper doesn't work for me), but can anyone give me a rough idea of the relative distributions of coeruliceps and lessonii (groups?)?
particularly which forms occur in Belize and the Yucatan?

Hi James.

The link to Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson 2004 doesn't seem to work for me either today, but the paper merely includes Momotus coeruliceps and M lessonii in "a working list of biological species that are divisible into multiple evolutionary species".

Snow 2001 (HBW6) gives:

coeruliceps [1836]: NE Mexico (E Nuevo León, S Tamaulipas)

lessonii [1842] group:

• goldmani: E Mexico (Veracruz, N Oaxaca, Tabasco) and neighbouring Guatemala (Petén)
• exiguus: Yucatán Peninsula
• lessonii: S Mexico (Chiapas) E to W Panama

Richard

 

[njlarsen]

Hi James.

The link to Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson 2004 doesn't seem to work for me either today, but the paper merely includes Momotus coeruliceps and M lessonii in "a working list of biological species that are divisible into multiple evolutionary species".

Snow 2001 (HBW6) gives:

coeruliceps [1836]: NE Mexico (E Nuevo León, S Tamaulipas)

lessonii [1842] group:

• goldmani: E Mexico (Veracruz, N Oaxaca, Tabasco) and neighbouring Guatemala (Petén)
• exiguus: Yucatán Peninsula
• lessonii: S Mexico (Chiapas) E to W Panama

Richard

Without having Clements in front of me, I believe they include northernmost Veracruz in coeruliceps. No matter, they also agree that Belize and Yucatan would involve the lessoni group.

My own observation from Xalapa in Veracruz is more difficult when looking at Clements (I need to go back to my notes from that trip).

Niels

 

[Richard Klim]

Without having Clements in front of me, I believe they include northernmost Veracruz in coeruliceps.

Yes, you're right Niels - Clements (and also AOU 1998, and Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson) give the range of coeruliceps as extending south to N Veracruz. [Dickinson 2003 just gives 'NE & C Mexico'; Howell & Webb 1995 'NE Mexico'.]

Edit: Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson don't seem to recognise ssp goldmani (perhaps treating it as a coeruliceps/lessonii intergrade???).
Richard

 

[mb1848]

The Gary Stiles SACC proposal mentions Chris Witt and here is his 12/2004 dissertation which analyzes the Motmots:
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-11122004-054504/unrestricted/Witt_dis.pdf .
He includes genes from goldmani.

 

[njlarsen]

The Gary Stiles SACC proposal mentions Chris Witt and here is his 12/2004 dissertation which analyzes the Motmots:
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-11122004-054504/unrestricted/Witt_dis.pdf .
He includes genes from goldmani.

Nice. He has two samples for coeruliceps, which seems to be sister to but with deep divergence from lessoni (I assume the two N Mexico samples in his tree refer to these two samples). These two groups seems to have diverged more than 1 MY ago according to his figure 4.9.

Niels

 

[njlarsen]

Another conclusion from the Witt dissertation, which he states explicitly (as opposed to me drawing the conclusion in the previous post for Blue-crowned Motmot): Rufous-tailed Jacamar consists of at least two species, northern and southern forms.

Niels

 

[James Lowther]

Yes, you're right Niels - Clements (and also AOU 1998, and Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson) give the range of coeruliceps as extending south to N Veracruz. [Dickinson 2003 just gives 'NE & C Mexico'; Howell & Webb 1995 'NE Mexico'.]

Edit: Navarro-Sigüenza & Peterson don't seem to recognise ssp goldmani (perhaps treating it as a coeruliceps/lessonii intergrade???).
Richard

Thanks Richard and Niels

 

[Daniel Philippe]

If you want to listen to them:

http://networkedblogs.com/p16768160