Cormorant Cull Petition (1 Viewer)

[StuartReeves]

I have no strong feelings either way on cormorant culling. But I feel that this is one fight that RSPB doesn't really need to have – surely it's better to concentrate on the protection of species of conservation concern.

We live on an overcrowded island where much of the habitat and wildlife is intensively managed, requiring compromise between different interest groups. In this particular case, I fear that RSPB's stance appears unreasonable to many people, given that there's no conservation imperative. Much goodwill (which might be valuable when fighting more important causes) is being lost. I just don't see the importance of maintaining such a large cormorant population.

Well said Richard, you've articulated my views for me!

 

[BrightIdea]

You clearly didn't read my post or you didn't understand it, but you completly missed my point.
I'm not saying you are an idiot if you feed the birds, I'm saying you are an idiot if you feed the birds and then complain that the Starlings are eating it all !

Yep, i misunderstood/read it.

As for crass and rude comments, if you dont like them you can always report them, and let the mods deal with it, if you are still not happy, may i suggest you try another forum?

Thanks for that advice.

 

[fugl]

True enough. But even RSPB isn't denying that cormorants are a problem - it's just arguing that it could be solved using non-lethal measures.

Agreed, there's a problem. But my question was (& is), what kind of problem: too many cormorants or simply too many disgruntled anglers looking for easy answers?

 

[Bird_Bill]

Agreed, there's a problem. But my question was (& is), what kind of problem: too many cormorants or simply too many disgruntled anglers looking for easy answers?

Relate with you,Fugl regarding your remarks in Nevada. See and hear much the same in Missouri.
Much of what is heard from a small minority of anglers here seems little more than wind blown hyperbole,
rather than anything rooted in science. If hatcheries full of non-native rainbow and brown trout here are considered
a "natural resource" being preditated by birds in this state, then I have to question whether it's frankensonian science
or just another way of generating revenue.

Could not find any research info that directly relates to comprenhensive
cause/effect mitigation regarding sport fisheries and cormorants anywhere in US.

Few links found that relates indirectly. First is USDA/Mississippi WS statement of mitigation
regarding wildlife and agriculture. Relates to aqua-culture also,Dbl Crstd. Cormorants and White Pelicans.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/wildlife_damage/content/printable_version/protecting_mississippi.pdf

Secondly is project in Queensland. Again relates to aqua-culture.
Feel it is outstandingly objective and straightfoward text,
has plethora of reference material linked.

http://www.derm.qld.gov.au/register/p01946aa.pdf

We support and buy aqua-culture products here. Operations visited on west coast
are some of most enviromentally conscious buisness's ever witnessed.
Dont feel same regarding fresh water farms here in my own state.

 

[Gretchen]

There was a controversy in my home state (Minnesota) about cormorants at a particular lake. There was some reference to studies by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR), though they were not explicitly linked. It says despite the increase in the number of cormorants there was still a healthy (and in some cases higher) number of fish in the lake.

Here's an article and a follow-up blog (same writer)

I would think that there would be other studies which have been done though...

 

[Bird_Bill]

There was a controversy in my home state (Minnesota) about cormorants at a particular lake. There was some reference to studies by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR), though they were not explicitly linked. It says despite the increase in the number of cormorants there was still a healthy (and in some cases higher) number of fish in the lake.

I would think that there would be other studies which have been done though...

I need a better search engine or better diligence employed when searching Gretchen,thanks for pointing out.

Same rhetoric being used there as here,and other places too it seems.
At the risk of sounding slighty bawdy...
Its as if political polarization is a factor.

 

[Gretchen]

Bill, I'm not claiming these were comprehensive studies, I think the ones I linked were just State DNR work and would only pertain to local situations. I would think there might be other studies too.

 

[Bird_Bill]

Appreciate the post Gretchen. None are insignificant,and the more viewpoints
the better. In that regard hope others follow your lead.

 

[alan_rymer]

When I first started fishing as a 12 year old in South Yorkshire the only place you saw Cormorants was at the coast. No freshwater fish were taken by Cormorants!

When I moved south to the west of London ( Berkshire ) in 1972 there were still no Cormorants, at least, not where I fished. Over the years they started to appear, first in maybe ones and twos. Not too much of an issue when they eat 1-2lb of fish a day.

Since then, the same 3 acre lake can have an "invasion" of maybe 20 Cormorants. If they spend the whole day there thats maybe thirty pound of fish. Multiply that be 365, and thats the scale of things.

Lakes, Gravel Pits tend to be leased by fishing clubs whose members pay for the "pleasure" of fishing there, and some of that money thats left over from the ever increasing amount demanded by the landowner is used to buy small fish to stock into the lake to grow on. The Cormorants eat these. The larger fish are too large at maybe three pounds and over, however, they do try, and damage the larger fish.

Rivers don't tend to be stocked with fish as they don't stay where you put them. Again, Cormorants do feed in rivers and take a lot of the smaller fish leaving just the larger ones that managed to survive to that age.

If anglers can't protect their stock, they may as well give up and let the landowner use it as a landfill and grass it over. That happens! There is no other revenue source for a small pond or lake thats too small for speedboats or Jetski's on this crowded island.

How many of you birders out there would start a club and lease a pond for wildlife instead of just complaining?

 

[captaincarot]

Aren't Cormorants already culled under licence?? - is the petition in question about removing all protections or what??

yes they are culled under licence, yes it is basically aimed at allowing someone to go out and shoot cormorants till there are no more cormorants, because they are foriegners which don't belong here.

this would then befollowed by removing all the ottres because they were introduced by people and shouldn't have been put there,

with a side order of getting rid of ospreys, goosander and merganser too.

it has **** all to do with conservation in any way shape or form other than conservation in the manner applied on grouse moors i.e. kill every thing that might possibly eat one of the species that you are farming.

 

[captaincarot]

Agreed, there's a problem. But my question was (& is), what kind of problem: too many cormorants or simply too many disgruntled anglers looking for easy answers?

the problem is neither too many cormorants nor too many anglers. the anglers complain that there aren't enough fish for them to bother fishing on rivers.

they then go to artificially stocked reservoirs which have so many fish in them the only way the fish can survive is to eat the anglers bait, if they did not eat it they would starve.

the rivers on the other hand are managed such that the flows are as low as they can possibly be, abstraction for agriculture and providing drinking water.
secondly no obstructions to flow are allowed, this comes from the mentality that any obstruction to flow will cause the river to flood.

large parts of the rivers are then canalised with straightened concrete banks inorder to speed the movement of water toward the sea as much as possible,
the final measure is to remove any and all natural weed growth at the earliest opportunity, because weed in rivers is bad it might make them flood.

so when a cormorant turns up looking for food it has no problem at all finding every fish i the river, because there is no where for them to hide and as soon as we get some rain any fry in the river can find no shelter from strong flows so they get washed out to sea.

 

[Robin Edwards]

How many of you birders out there would start a club and lease a pond for wildlife instead of just complaining?

Like this you mean Alan?
http://www.paxton-pits.org.uk/friendsjoin.htm
and here http://www.paxton-pits.org.uk/cormorant.htm

The lakes at Paxton offer fishing as well as a colony of breeding cormorants that attract visitors and hopefully over time, more friends and more revenue to do more good.

I think the complaint Alan is that groups call for a cull all too easily and not as a last resort. The root-causes are complex and man-made and I don't endorse culling if only to protect sport.

To follow an earlier posting, I don't see feeding birds to be a sport but something that helps protect urban birds.

 

[Richard Klim]

it has **** all to do with conservation in any way shape or form other than conservation in the manner applied on grouse moors i.e. kill every thing that might possibly eat one of the species that you are farming.

A bit like culling foxes on bird reserves.

 

[captaincarot]

A bit like culling foxes on bird reserves.

not really no, it is the same mentality, that poisons and shoots, golden eagles, hen harriers and peregrines on grouse moors though.

because not all of the cormorants that get killed are killed under licence, and none of the otters that get killed then dumped on a road and run over are killed under licence either.

 

[NAB]

why?

I signed it because in addition to being a keen birder, I'm also a keen angler and it is hard fact that a large flock of Cormorants will arrive on a lake or stretch of river and systematically clean it out leaving only large aging fish with no new fish coming through.

Up until recently I held the position of Conservation Officer for one of the UK largest angling clubs, and on several occasions I successfully applied to Natural England to shoot Cormorants where we had an acute problem i.e. one popular 5 acre lake which the club had rented for over 30 years, suddenly developed a Cormorant issue with up to 25 birds flying in daily. The lake was stocked within E.A guidelines (i.e. not an over stocked commercial fishery) and was completely decimated by the Cormorants. Scaring measures were attempted i.e. scarecrows and starter pistols but this had a very limited effect. Natural England agreed we had a Cormorant problem and issued a licence to shoot 6 birds as an aid to scaring. This was 3 years ago, and the licence is still renewed annually as the buggers keep coming back. The club also had to restock the lake at great expense.

Another water which the club owns has a SSSI status and again fish stocks crashed following the attention of Cormorants. Due to the SSSI status Natural England held strict control over fish stocking consents, and they paid for a fish survey to be carried out on the Mere. This again showed a head of larger aging fish with no new fish coming through (apart from small perch which breed at an early age). Other species which were to be expected were completely missing from the mere i.e. Roach and Rudd. The SSSI is currently listed as being in a deteriorating state, and part of this is due to the fact it has lower than expected natural fish stocks. We are also currently working hard with NE and the E.A to bring the SSSI back into a favourable condition.

I could go on as I have numerous examples and it’s not just restricted to still waters as many river stretches are now completely devoid of young fish and certain species. I also believe there are current concerns over falling numbers of Dabchicks, Great Crest Grebes and Kingfishers and it would be interesting to know if numbers of inland Cormorants an contributing to their decline?

Remember high numbers of inland Cormorants is a relatively new phenomena, as 25 years ago you hardly saw any. You cannot expect responsible angling clubs to sit by and watch whilst their waters are decimated, and the same goes for land owners who ultimately lose valuable income. Furthermore it’s a bit rich for the RSPB to object, as they are also capable of dealing with avian pests when it suits a conservation project.

Regards,

Neil

 

[BrightIdea]

I signed it because ...
Regards,

Neil

Since you have direct experience and since my previous querry went unanswered, I am curious as to whether you/your clubs explored encouraging more habitat for natural predators of the cormorants.

Thanks

 

[captaincarot]

Since you have direct experience and since my previous querry went unanswered, I am curious as to whether you/your clubs explored encouraging more habitat for natural predators of the cormorants.

Thanks

what would you term a natural predator of a cormorant

 

[Richard Klim]

Gulls and corvids will presumably take cormorant eggs or even chicks. But adult cormorants are effectively at the top of the food chain (in England, anyway).

 

[captaincarot]

further to what richard states, there was a plan to return a possible predator of cormorants to southern england, in the form of the white tailed eagle, but this was abandoned due to hysterical opposition from vested interests, such as farmers, shoots and fish farms.

 

[NAB]

Agreed, in the UK the Cormorant sits at the top of the food chain.