Deer culling the natural way (2 Viewers)

[Farnboro John]

Nice George Monbiot article about reintroduction to UK of wolves and lynx. Long overdue IMO.

Britain’s surging deer population is causing an ecological disaster. I have a solution: wolves | George Monbiot

Humans have failed to keep numbers down. Reintroduce these predators, and let them get on with the job, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

He doesn't even mention the benefits from Wolves of keeping live deer moving so they can't eat out any particular area, which was one of several unanticipated keystone effects when Wolves were reintroduced to Yellowstone, allowing regeneration of riparian woodlands and the consequent enhancement of Beaver landscape scale eco-engineering.

John

 

[Scott98]

Yep, the trout are doing better in Yellowstone because the vegetation has returned around streams and rivers and the shade lowers the water temperature. The elk are too afraid to stand out in the open eating the shrubs around the streams.

There are far too many elk in Yellowstone - when I lived there the population was 23,000 and the natural number for the ecosystem and territory was 3,500. They were actually feeding them alfalfa pellets in the winter - don't know if they still do this. Here in the northeast USA suburbs the deer devour anything green below 6 feet in height, it has a devastating effect in the forest. Among other ill effects it causes the tick population to explode.

 

[Elkhornsun]

Ranchers and sheep producers still dictate government policy. 200 wolves killed in the USA as a result of Trump taking them off the endangered species listing. We have a U.S. Park Service that still culls/harvests/kills hundreds of elk and bison in the U.S. National Parks to placate the ranchers who pay a pittance in grazing fees and whose sheep and cattle transmit diseases like Brucelosis to wildlife.

 

[Conndomat]

Here in Germany, the wolf is a competitor to the hunter, many are fighting to be allowed to shoot the wolf again.
Little Red Riding Hood stories are conjured out of a hat, the bad wolf, it's hair-raising.

Andreas

 

[etudiant]

Nature will adjust the excesses even without predators, by disease or starvation. Unfortunately, there is a lot of collateral damage as well.
For instance, the exploding deer population in the US is stripping the underbrush that many species rely on for shelter and nesting opportunities.
Chronic wasting disease is one potential curb, a kind of 'mad cow' disease afflicting cervids world wide, still relatively rare, but infectious and incurable.
Predators seem by far the more preferable solution.

 

[Ignatius]

Ah you mean like using myxomatosis and more recently RHD in Oz to 'control' rabbits. What could possibly go wrong? Maybe Spain would be an example of that, where the very successful use of myx also caused the near extinction of the lynx and the eagle. And what do we know yet of a cervid mad-cow-like disease and its potential zoonotic spread - possibly also to humans from infected but asymptomatic 'harvested' cervids? Predators and doing stuff the natural way do indeed seem a whole lot safer, no matter the knee-jerk whining of the farming and hunting lobbies.

 

[maplekong]

Who here shares my disappointment in humanity

 

[MiddleRiver]

Nature will adjust the excesses even without predators, by disease or starvation. Unfortunately, there is a lot of collateral damage as well.
For instance, the exploding deer population in the US is stripping the underbrush that many species rely on for shelter and nesting opportunities.
Chronic wasting disease is one potential curb, a kind of 'mad cow' disease afflicting cervids world wide, still relatively rare, but infectious and incurable.
Predators seem by far the more preferable solution.

I saw a study once where a plot of forest was fenced off (to deer). In as little as a year's time, the difference was visibly notable and in a couple of years it was dramatic. Where we live (backed up against decidious forest) the understory is stripped clean and attempting to grow a garden is an exercise in futility. It's not unusual to see several groups of 6-12 deer in neighbor's fields any time we go out this time of year. A neighboring farm reported killing 60+ deer in the past two years (year-round with special permits). It's a rural county, so there is - relatively speaking - lots of hunting, but really it barely makes a dent. CWD has not arrived but is present in nearby counties. I doubt predator reintroduction would ever be accepted and in fact in some nearby counties, there are still bounties on Coyotes. Cattle and sheep farmers despise them, contrary to research which has shown the negative impact to be relatively minimal.

 

[Jim M.]

Here in the northeast USA suburbs the deer devour anything green below 6 feet in height, it has a devastating effect in the forest.

It might be helpful if the deer actually did that here in Maryland. We seem to be getting overrun by invasive plants, and I am not aware that our native deer eat any of those. But the forest floor is once again turning green – but the green is lesser celandine early in the season, replaced by garlic mustard, Japanese stilt grass, Japanese Pachysandra, wineberry, multiflora rose, et al. later in the year.

 

[etudiant]

Ah you mean like using myxomatosis and more recently RHD in Oz to 'control' rabbits. What could possibly go wrong? Maybe Spain would be an example of that, where the very successful use of myx also caused the near extinction of the lynx and the eagle. And what do we know yet of a cervid mad-cow-like disease and its potential zoonotic spread - possibly also to humans from infected but asymptomatic 'harvested' cervids? Predators and doing stuff the natural way do indeed seem a whole lot safer, no matter the knee-jerk whining of the farming and hunting lobbies.

Unlike the deliberately introduced plagues such as myxomatosis, CWD has no human origin afaik. It appears to be a rare natural disease that is self limiting if the population is dispersed, but risks explosive spread if the animals are too concentrated.
It is probable that the disease also infects humans on close contact. I don't know whether predators are also at risk from it, but it would seem plausible.

 

[vergan]

Unlike the deliberately introduced plagues such as myxomatosis, CWD has no human origin afaik. It appears to be a rare natural disease that is self limiting if the population is dispersed, but risks explosive spread if the animals are too concentrated.
It is probable that the disease also infects humans on close contact. I don't know whether predators are also at risk from it, but it would seem plausible.

There are for sure close contact between human and deer where CWD was involved with no infection, you know either hunters when butchering the deer, deer farmers, and of course the guys who bring the infected deer to South Korea.
I would certainly be more concerned with covid and deer, from a human point of view.

 

[etudiant]

There are for sure close contact between human and deer where CWD was involved with no infection, you know either hunters when butchering the deer, deer farmers, and of course the guys who bring the infected deer to South Korea.
I would certainly be more concerned with covid and deer, from a human point of view.

Agree that deer are an active Covid vector and consequently an extra risk for hunters. CWD is apparently comparable to 'mad cow' disease, so it seems premature to conclude that it is not a risk for people, because it may have a similarly long incubation period in humans.

 

[Farnboro John]

Agree that deer are an active Covid vector and consequently an extra risk for hunters. CWD is apparently comparable to 'mad cow' disease, so it seems premature to conclude that it is not a risk for people, because it may have a similarly long incubation period in humans.

I think the final score on "mad cow disease" was 28, so when put against 8Bn and rising it wasn't ever a great threat. Is there some reason why this might be, or is this just more hype?

John

 

[etudiant]

I think the final score on "mad cow disease" was 28, so when put against 8Bn and rising it wasn't ever a great threat. Is there some reason why this might be, or is this just more hype?

John

Possibly just more hype, but the disease is incurable afaik and the incubation period is uncertain, possibly several years. The transmission mechanism is eating or close contact such as butchering, procedures inherent in hunting, so the risk is potentially substantial. Deer and moose hunters are hopefully aware that they are society's guinea pigs in this situation.

 

[qwerty5]

If I recall correctly, I heard of someone in western Virginia who killed 35 deer in one night with a control permit. I really don't understand this. Surely there weren't this many deer 100 years ago, and I'm guessing we had fewer predators then. My thinking is that some sort of course correction is inevitable, and it probably won't have anything to do with any human attempts to fix it. Personally I don't see wolves coming back to the eastern U.S., there is just far too many people and not enough huge tracts of habitat.

I am thinking, with this many deer, maybe a state will come up with a plan to harvest large numbers and use the meat.

 

[PYRTLE]

If I recall correctly, I heard of someone in western Virginia who killed 35 deer in one night with a control permit. I really don't understand this. Surely there weren't this many deer 100 years ago, and I'm guessing we had fewer predators then. My thinking is that some sort of course correction is inevitable, and it probably won't have anything to do with any human attempts to fix it. Personally I don't see wolves coming back to the eastern U.S., there is just far too many people and not enough huge tracts of habitat.

I am thinking, with this many deer, maybe a state will come up with a plan to harvest large numbers and use the meat.

Entirely agree. It will put food on some folks table, especially the desperate families on low income. I too don't understand the need to kill so many animals in one go, surely too many for the pot, even if you froze one.
John, change of heart regarding reintroduction? Either of these species would have to fenced or penned in to protect them from stupid trophy hunters. And isn't this the type of "zoo" you have a dislike for? ( Devil's debating advocate here ).

NB. I am not vegan though I have reduced my overall intake of red meat, to an occassional treat.

 

[qwerty5]

I too don't understand the need to kill so many animals in one go, surely too many for the pot, even if you froze one.

I think it was a large herd (is that the correct term for a group of deer?) that was decimating a crop, so the goal was just control. Sadly the meat probably went to waste, unless they had a good plan for it.

 

[PYRTLE]

I think it was a large herd (is that the correct term for a group of deer?) that was decimating a crop, so the goal was just control. Sadly the meat probably went to waste, unless they had a good plan for it.

Maybe, but culling a couple  might have scared the rest of the herd away until the crop was harvested.
I would be thrilled to know of the two predators living contently in our dwindling wild spaces but fear this won't occur in my lifetime.

 

[Mono]

30% of the venison sold in the UK comes from farms in New Zealand!

 

[PYRTLE]

30% of the venison sold in the UK comes from farms in New Zealand!

Although I haven't purchased any for a few years, I live in a rural part of the country where both wild and farmed "fresh" deer is readily available in traditional butchers and farmshops. Roe, Fallow, Sika and Red being the species. Anything excess is obviously frozen for purchase out of season. Why buy stuff that's travelled thousands of miles if you can afford to support local businesses.
Mind you I gulp at a price of nearly £25 for a table ready medium chicken from a nearby small farm.