Diver, River Tay, Dundee, Scotland 20/12/23. (1 Viewer)

[Stonefaction]

Seen this diver flying rather distantly down river between Broughty Ferry, Dundee and Tentsmuir Forest, Fife today. Only just got round to looking at pics - as I'd had a Hen Harrier later and forgot I still had more photos to look through. Even on very bad photos the feet appear to stick out really far behind this bird. On 2nd of the photos the bill looks rather large and potentially 'yellowish' and there appears to be a white mark on the neck behind the head. However, the OM-1 doesn't handle detail on distant 'dots' anything like an SLR, so I suspect this might not be 100% identifiable. I don't really get a Red Throated 'feel' from the bird at all, though it did appear to be doing the up/down neck thing that RTD does. It is possible that I'm misjudging the size and that everything is actually in proprtion. Opinions welcome, as always.

Possible to see photos slightly larger on X - https://x.com/SFbirding/status/1737615339507372161?s=20

 

[Prestdj]

black throated diver? would be my best guess

 

[KenM]

FWIW Stonefaction, here’s an RTD that I shot a couple of months ago.👍

 

[Butty]

Can't see anything to stop it being red-throated diver: slender-looking toes and thin-looking bill are right, though that may be just the low photo-quality (no offence). Doesn't have the lower-throat pattern of great northern diver. Can't see anything to make it black-throated diver.

 

[Ratal]

Red Throated Diver by colour, proportions, way its holding itself in the air.
That's what I'd put my money on.

 

[Stonefaction]

Thanks, folks. I had put it down as a Red Throated but only started doubting myself when I looked at the photos - of which these were the only barely passable shots. I then convinced myself the feet were much longer than usual, which gave me a false impression of overall size/proportions, and the bill just didn't show enough detail to cancel that out, hence the reason(s) for posting. I do miss my DSLR sometimes - I'd have been able to see much more detail had the photos been taken with that, but I really don't miss the weight of it.

 

[Butty]

I then convinced myself the feet were much longer than usual

As I indicated above, I think the feature is not the length of the feet but the bulk (of the toes).

 

[Ratal]

Thanks, folks. I had put it down as a Red Throated but only started doubting myself when I looked at the photos - of which these were the only barely passable shots. I then convinced myself the feet were much longer than usual, which gave me a false impression of overall size/proportions, and the bill just didn't show enough detail to cancel that out, hence the reason(s) for posting. I do miss my DSLR sometimes - I'd have been able to see much more detail had the photos been taken with that, but I really don't miss the weight of it.

On the plus side - You still got to see an awesome Diver no matter the species. Always a good day birding when you find one of them!

 

[Stonefaction]

As I indicated above, I think the feature is not the length of the feet but the bulk (of the toes).

(No offence, I believe the phrase is ) ...Which I read after having had the experience which my explanation describes.... (ie. the explanation as to why I was querying the bird).

From the angle of the photos (and the lack of detail the OM-1 gives in such circumstances), it is hard to make out anything more than the length of projection (which could be argued as being supportive of a 'lack' of bulk to the feet, and with hindsight and subsequent discussion, it does seem marginally more 'obvious' - though some of the photos in the "Flight Identification of European Seabirds" book don't show much 'bulk' to the feet either - and although size of actual feet does get mentioned in places, it does seem to focus more on 'length').

In the photos where there appears to be some shape to the bill, it doesn't look particularly RTD shaped to me - though I've seen some looking a bit more BTD-like even on good photos - and the combination of both features and the inherent difficulty of judging the size of a lone bird had me querying my initial ID, hence the post. Divers, Skuas, young (and big) Gulls, skulky warblers and some waders have always been groups of birds I don't get enough chances to 'experience' enough to build up properly and keep refreshed, good mental pictures to ensure correct IDs more often than not.

On the plus side - You still got to see an awesome Diver no matter the species. Always a good day birding when you find one of them!

Anything other than a RTD would've been new for my Dundee145 list, so the question was worth asking. I don't get too much chance to practice diver ID these days as the only ones I do see in the Tay tend to be RTDs in winter, and of those most are distant, and very few are in flight. The Hen Harrier made it a good day....

EDIT: P.S. Thanks everyone for their input, as always.

 

[Prestdj]

im sticking my neck out and still think its black throated given the photos not much to go on but, i will go on shape rather than plumage as it is by the op admission poor, so........the bumps in the belly and lower neck are quite large and pronounced, its neck is downwards all the photos in my books and online and experiance , black throated to have level/upwards neck in flight it just dosent have the feel of red throated to me

 

[Stonefaction]

im sticking my neck out and still think its black throated given the photos not much to go on but, i will go on shape rather than plumage as it is by the op admission poor, so........the bumps in the belly and lower neck are quite large and pronounced, its neck is downwards all the photos in my books and online and experiance , black throated to have level/upwards neck in flight it just dosent have the feel of red throated to me

Black Throated would be the rarest of the 3 'common' Diver species locally - and I've actually seen more White Billed Divers than Black Throateds a bit further to the south, from Fife Ness. That doesn't mean it can't be one, of course, and I agree with you that it doesn't have a feel of RTD (based on the 3 poor photos) but I don't think I can claim a BTD (much as I'd like to). Consensus on here and Twitter is RTD, so I'll stick with that, though with the caveat that it isn't 100% a RTD, mentioned in my blog-post (when I get round to it).