Eagle Owls in Yorkshire?? (1 Viewer)

[London Birder]

the programme did no more really than depict a fine pair of EO's and young, the RSPB citing Corncrake as a species of concern if EO's ever became established in Corncrake areas, some info from Holland (where thing's are a little different in that there's no rabbits, less quarries and the status of their birds is relatively clear) and RD walking around looking at EO's and shuffling a pile of antiquated dubious records ... by now we all know the RSPB's and BOU's positions, no one's going to shoot them officially ... it all becomes a little academic really after a point, we know what's happening with the pair's that are known about, some clarification on the 40 pairs, their status and whether they are being monitored would be useful as would a summary of findings to date

 

[StevieEvans]

As you know, eagle owls will prey on a wide range of bird and mammals. In the tv programme, the Yorkshire pair were shown eating rabbits, but little is known about what else is eaten by that pair or others elsewhere in the UK.

They might take just a few individuals of scarce birds, such as black grouse or hen harriers, in which case there may be no problem,
Julian Hughes Head of Species Conservation
RSPB

We were all told to "keep quiet about these", as one of the N.Yorks pairs were being monitored as to their local impact.....
It was then to be deceided what should "happen to them"

Surely someones looked at at least a sample of pellets....

It strikes me as bizarre that the programme should be aired & RSPB representatives pass comment without them having the full facts about the case in question....

Also, & interestingly, no mention was made of neighbouring owl species.

Steve

PS. I totally disagree with his comments about a few individuals of Hen Harrier.... a few individuals is all a local population may well consist of !!

 

[Pugs]

I can't believe that nobody is monitoring these owls! Surely somebody is taking pellet samples for analysis. I for one would gladly take up the challenge. Maybe they should get the Hawk & Owl Trust or some other organisation to monitor the pairs present.

I volunteer

 

[breffni]

From what i have read, top level predators rarely have the same kind of impact as species lower on the food chain - RSPB makes comparison with crayfish and invasive plants (eg Spartina or Caulerpa taxifolia) which are hardly comparable to eagle owls. Top level predators generally have a population controlling effect that may be more or less complex (eg lemmings and snowy owls) but has the benefit of keeping prey populations from booming and adversely affecting their own environment...the only case of a top level predator introduction i can find is the mongoose in Hawaii - but the mongoose is not a top level predator in its natural environment...

On the other hand many very positive cases of top-level predator introductions that lead to improvements in welfare of prey populations (wolves, bears vs caribu, elk etc)...

Does anybody have a case study or paper of a top-level predator introduction that had an adverse effect on native settled species?

 

[Barn Owl Centre]

I think I have uploaded this once already but after reading the above I would like to upload it again as a reminder.

Eagle Owls during the night will kill native Owls such as Barn Owls, Tawny Owls & Little Owls, when hunted they will have little intention to eat them, pellet analysis in my opinion would be a waste of time as this would not show anything. I have seen what an Eagle Owl can do & this I have witnessed on the few occasions when I have been called out to few escapees.

Here's one brief example of what I encountered in Glastonbury in 2000, which I won't forget. I was called out to re-captured a loose Eagle Owl, this Eagle Owl was loose for approximately 18months, it was loose because it didn't return back to its handler. After a few months in the wild I discovered that around its roost were discarded carcasses, this being 2 Barn Owls & 3 Tawny Owls. By keeping in contact with some of the local residence I was informed of more habits it developed, which in time helped me to re-capture it. On a conservation note it took nearly 2 years from its escape before for the local Owl population regenerated its self. By taking out a localised Owl species that could mob it by air at night & alert its ground prey of its presence this would be to the Eagle Owls advantage.

The programme showed no concern or acknowledgement of the effect this pair had to the local Owl population around the site, it showed more interest in the rabbits it preyed on for which the viewers were in favour. Surely the question needs to be asked ff there is no rabbits left or Owls left in the location of its residence what will it prey on next?

As my daily task involves closely working & studying 2 captive bred Eagle Owls who are both flown in a wild environment day & sometimes through the night I do learn about them & their night time behaviours. These 2 Owls work together showing the identical behaviour of that of the Tawny Owl. Personally I wish the ones in the wild no harm but sometimes there is a place for them & in my opinion this is not the UK, the land mass is to small to support a population.

From what I learn about this Eagle Owl daily its not the ideal bird to be loose near to a Barn Owl site at night as I know the conservation impact they can cause!

I have now created a night time activity with Eagle Owls, with this I will take people out into the Owls world. The aim of this is to try & educate people on the night time behaviour & capabilities of this species, I will not be doing this within a commercial grass area with a few posts, the birds will be flown in a countryside environment, in addition the birds will be showing their natural behaviour, night time footage was not provided on the programme!

We can all talk about the Eagle Owl but to experience these powerful birds up close & at night is a different matter. If this activity can try to educate people on what is now in our countryside we can try & make people aware on how it can effect Barn Owl conservation. If this sort of promotion is against the rules please ammend.

Vincent Jones
Director/Conservation Officer
The Barn Owl Centre
www.barnowl.co.uk

PS: The RSPB have everyy right to show concern regarding its presence

 

[Strandman]

Does anybody have a case study or paper of a top-level predator introduction that had an adverse effect on native settled species?

I guess fox (e.g. in Australia) does not count as a true top predator given that it historically would have had superior predators (like wolves). I've also struggled to think of a good example of an introduced avian top predator (as opposed to an introduced competitor of which of course there are lots)...can anyone think of one?

 

[Strandman]

IThe programme showed no concern or acknowledgement of the effect this pair had to the local Owl population around the site, it showed more interest in the rabbits it preyed on for which the viewers were in favour. Surely the question needs to be asked ff there is no rabbits left or Owls left in the location of its residence what will it prey on next?

There seemed to be signs of a consensus on this thread that EOs do need to be monitored to see what effect they have and as you say- if done properly- it may well show significant take-out of Tawny Owl, Barn Owl. Then someone will have to decide if that is one of those highly exceptional cases where intervention is required (and legally allowed).

But do you have a feel for the sort of area a pair of EOs would exert the sort of influence you describe? I can't imagine them ever being present at high densities given nest site constraints, so wouldn't it only ever be pockets of a few km square where other species are impacted to this degree? I'm thinking that- unlike eagles- they probably do not hunt more than a few Ks from the roost site.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I can't imagine them ever being present at high densities given nest site constraints, so wouldn't it only ever be pockets of a few km square where other species are impacted to this degree? I'm thinking that- unlike eagles- they probably do not hunt more than a few Ks from the roost site.

Agree with most of your comments White-back, I don't think they are likely to occur in high densities. However, I don't believe nest sites will be a limiting factor - though I understand the Yorkshire pair is on a rockface (haven't seen program, so apologies if I am wrong), there are no cliffs or rockfaces here in Lithuania ...all Eagle Owls are tree-nesting, taking used nest of raptors, etc.
As for distance hunted, the pair on my local patch certainly flies 2-3 km from its nest site to hunt at a local lake (takes gulls from the nesting colony), beyond that I have no information.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Surely the question needs to be asked ff there is no rabbits left or Owls left in the location of its residence what will it prey on next?

Personally I wish the ones in the wild no harm but sometimes there is a place for them & in my opinion this is not the UK, the land mass is to small to support a population.

Though you have your concerns Barn Owl Centre, I feel they are rather unfounded ...the first part of your quote above questions if there are no rabbits left - do you really imagine the Eagle Owls will take so many that the rabbits will not replenish themselves?

You continue to talk of Eagle Owls impact on other owl species - though predation does occur, is there any evidence of widespread population declines due to Eagle Owl kills? Across Europe, Eagle Owls co-exist with other owl species, regardless. In the forest where I have Eagle Owls, Long-eared Owls are the most numerous owl species, others also in lower numbers (of course, I could speculate there would be even more if the Eagle Owls vanished).

As for the UK being too small for a population, well I'm not sure how that conclusion is reached. UK is about 250,000 square kilometres, Lithuania only 65,000. The fact that it is an island is neither here nor there in terms of ability to support a population.

 

[StevieEvans]

I have seen what an Eagle Owl can do & this I have witnessed on the few occasions when I have been called out to few escapees.

Here's one brief example of what I encountered in Glastonbury in 2000, which I won't forget. I was called out to re-captured a loose Eagle Owl, this Eagle Owl was loose for approximately 18months, it was loose because it didn't return back to its handler.

Yes, this appears to be an escaped pet.
Maybe after escaping from its 6' x 4' shed & finding itself in the wild it found the experience somewhat traumatic....?
Your experience is a cast iron argument for not keeping any captive owls, and has very little bearing on a pair of English Eagle Owls living wild (whatever their provenance).

The programme showed no concern or acknowledgement of the effect this pair had to the local Owl population around the site,

NB. I recorded Short eared, Little & Tawny Owls with ease in close proximity of the televised pair. The other 2 species are present within 10km of the site.

it showed more interest in the rabbits it preyed on for which the viewers were in favour.

Theres more rabs up there than you can shake a stick at !

Surely the question needs to be asked ff there is no rabbits left or Owls left in the location of its residence what will it prey on next?

? they'd move onto the next most numerous local prey item.

Concern Yes please.......
Scaremongering No thanks.

SE

 

[Pugs]

Eagle Owls during the night will kill native Owls such as Barn Owls, Tawny Owls & Little Owls, when hunted they will have little intention to eat them, pellet analysis in my opinion would be a waste of time as this would not show anything. I have seen what an Eagle Owl can do & this I have witnessed on the few occasions when I have been called out to few escapees.

The programme showed no concern or acknowledgement of the effect this pair had to the local Owl population around the site, it showed more interest in the rabbits it preyed on for which the viewers were in favour. Surely the question needs to be asked ff there is no rabbits left or Owls left in the location of its residence what will it prey on next?

I'm sorry but I totally disagree that pellet analysis is 'a waste of time'.

Sampling pellets and examining prey items in and around the nest site and surrounding area, would give us a general indicator on what these birds are primarily feeding upon. It has given us indicators on the general state of predator/prey relationships in a given habitat for many species of bird of prey, so why not EO’s? It may or may not indicate a presence of other owl species taken but it does tell us what the local population is using as a local food resource and more importantly the most sought after prey item and in which seasons.

“Surely the question needs to be asked ff there is no rabbits left or Owls left in the location of its residence what will it prey on next?
“

I very much doubt that rabbits would simply disappear (but there is a chance due to disease) in which case sampling becomes even more important. If this were the case then the birds would move on to the next most abundant prey (which I seriously doubt are Barn owls!)

From studies in Europe birds of prey form between 0.5 to 3.5 % of all bird prey species taken. The most common being (H Mikkola)

1: Long-eared Owl (768)
2: Buzzard (327)
3: Tawny Owl (286)
4: Kestrel (194)

And with over 20 records

1: Little, Short-eared, Tengmalm’s, Goshawk and Peregrine.

Now on to the important bit

“Barn Owls also feature less often as victims than do other medium-sized owls, with Eagle Owls, Golden Eagle, Goshawk, Red Kite, Buzzards, Lanner and Peregrines having taken them a total of 67 times” H Mikkola.
Now think about that last statement, what would impact a Barn owl population most out of those birds quoted? Certainly not a Lanner, possibly not even Golden Eagle or Eagle Owl but I would hazard a guess(tongue in cheek) here ,the more common diurnal birds of prey i.e. Buzzard, Red Kite. So the Barn Owl could be preyed upon in those ranges in which it overlaps with the above mentioned birds. Simple.

Whilst on the subject for those (RSPB maybe) who are worried about Eagle Owls preying on domestic cats (and using it as an arsenal) and such, they represent 0.03% of a total prey count of 35, 230 recorded prey items, scare mongering? I think so :smoke:

Until we carry out studies over here this is the only basis (from Europe) we have to go by. I could go on but maybe later...

 

[Barn Owl Centre]

Dear Forum Readers

Here's a few friendly questions I would like to put to those who have made comments & statements on this interesting subject "The Eagle Owl in Britain".

The subject on the Eagle Owl originally was about the UK & the effect it can have in our country, it is not about Europe & beyond. In Europe its a native species in the UK there is very strong arguement.

Question 1) How many have actually seen an Eagle Owl living in the wild?

Question 1) How many of you have actually worked & studied these birds (With this I mean wild or captive birds or both?

Question 2) What was the time scale & period of your study & at what location & who with?

Question 2) How many simply read about what others have written & comment accordingly to what your personal feelings are or have your comments been made from what you have read or heard through the grape vine?

Question 3) What experience have you encountered with Eagle Owls?
a) Was this observation only or have you been involved in the monitoring of the species?

Question 4) How many have simply shown an interest in the subject?
a) Was this after the BBC programme was launched or through other means media?
a) Was it after reading about it on forums like this one?

The above are not difficult questions yet a simple answer would be brilliant. Why? Because it will tell readers the type of experience you have personally encountered on the subject. Some might have the experience of the species some may be relaying what others have written about. It would be interesting to read the answers.

Cheers

Here's an email I received from the BTO

Dear Vince

Thank you for your email about the programme on Eagle Owls shown on the
television last week. The nestlings from the Eagle Owl nest shown are being
ringed with BTO rings as part of the Ringing Scheme. There are currently no
restictions on the ringing of feral birds. A variety of feral birds are
ringed each year to collect information on their movements (particularly of
interest if they are spreading eg Egyptian Goose), survival etc. By ringing
the Eagle Owl nestlings, information can be collected on their movements
also - such as the bird which was recovered in Shropshire this year.

 

[StevieEvans]

Dear Forum Readers

Here's a few friendly questions I would like to put to those who have made comments & statements on this interesting subject "The Eagle Owl in Britain or Europe & beyond".

Question 1) How many have actually seen an Eagle Owl living in the wild?

Question 1) How many of you have actually worked & studied these birds (With this I mean wild or captive birds or both?

Question 2) What was the time scale & period of your study & at what location & who with?

Question 2) How many simply read about what others have written & comment accordingly to what you have read or have heard?

Question 3) What experience have you encountered with Eagle Owls?
a) Was this observation only or have you been involved in the monitoring of the species

Question 4) How many have simply shown an interest in the subject?
a) Was this after the BBC programme was launched or through other means media?
a) Was it after reading about it on forums like this one?

The above are not difficult questions yet a simple answer would be brilliant. Why? Because it will tell readers the type of experience you have personally encountered on the subject. Some might have the experience of the species some may be relaying what others have written about. It would be interesting to read the answers.

Cheers

You seriously suggest everyone quantifies their experiences, just b'cos you don't like hearing the flip side of the discussion...?
Most people making an informed statement (on any BF thread) have stated or quoted their sources.

2 Ears : 1 Mouth
sometimes its best to use them in that ratio.

PS. Several members on here know each other away from the computer screen. Also after posting for a while you get to know "the measure" of different posters....
Fair enough there are a few "instant expert, just add subject types" but most simply accept that theres 2 sides to every story ;-)
SE

 

[Pugs]

Dear Forum Readers

Here's a few friendly questions I would like to put to those who have made comments & statements on this interesting subject "The Eagle Owl in Britain or Europe & beyond".

Question 1) How many have actually seen an Eagle Owl living in the wild?

Question 1) How many of you have actually worked & studied these birds (With this I mean wild or captive birds or both?

Question 2) What was the time scale & period of your study & at what location & who with?

Question 2) How many simply read about what others have written & comment accordingly to what your personal feelings are or have your comments been made from what you have read or heard through the grape vine?

Question 3) What experience have you encountered with Eagle Owls?
a) Was this observation only or have you been involved in the monitoring of the species?

Question 4) How many have simply shown an interest in the subject?
a) Was this after the BBC programme was launched or through other means media?
a) Was it after reading about it on forums like this one?

The above are not difficult questions yet a simple answer would be brilliant. Why? Because it will tell readers the type of experience you have personally encountered on the subject. Some might have the experience of the species some may be relaying what others have written about. It would be interesting to read the answers.

Cheers

I think we should amend those questions particularly

Question 1) How many of you have actually worked & studied these birds (With this I mean wild or captive birds or both?

To

Question 1) How many of you have actually worked & studied these birds (With this I mean wild)?

 

[Pugs]

Do people here agree that by 'studies' this should include domestic stock?

Comments please

 

[Barn Owl Centre]

You seriously suggest everyone quantifies their experiences, just b'cos you don't like hearing the flip side of the discussion...?
Most people making an informed statement (on any BF thread) have stated or quoted their sources.

2 Ears : 1 Mouth
sometimes its best to use them in that ratio.
SE

Typical, one asks some simple questions & this is the reply that is received. There have been some strong comments & beliefs on here relating to the species & because Eagle Owls in the UK are only worth £100 or free to good homes I am very concerned indeed with how the future will be, As a Barn Owl conservationists I am very concerned that after seeing the programme, people in the UK will simply chuck more captive stock into the wild.

 

[StevieEvans]

Do people here agree that by 'studies' this should include domestic stock?

Comments please

No, shouldnt be included as This is a Wild Bird Forum.
SE

 

[Pugs]

Vince, we agree that there has to be more legalisation concerning captive breed stock. All owls need to be licensed like the diurnal birds and people who simply release these birds, banned from owning them etc

 

[StevieEvans]

Typical, one asks some simple questions & this is the reply that is received. There have been some strong comments & beliefs on here relating to the species & because Eagle Owls in the UK are only worth £100 or free to good homes I am very concerned indeed with how the future will be, As a Barn Owl conservationists I am very concerned that after seeing the programme, people in the UK will simply chuck more captive stock into the wild.

Im sure you are doing sterling work with the Barnies & i'd like you to know i erected a marine ply Barn Owl box on Friday afternoon, but,
maybe you'd be better off channeling some effort into tightening up / putting into place legislation to counter the "Harry Potter effect" of countless Eagle owls destined for a miserable existance in a grubby back garden shed....?
Locally, Bops & owls are unfortunately very much in vogue.
SE

 

[Barn Owl Centre]

I know its a wild bird forum but until the real facts have been given on whether the Eagle Owl in the UK were wild in the first place we must assume they have been illegally released (Captive Stock). Now these are breeding to produce a wild population I am concerned about the wild Barn Owl species I help to conserve, is there anything wrong in that.

Soon this will happen with the Harris Hawk!!! What happens then do we except it & monitor it the way the Eagle Owl is being monitored or is it simply a species tick in a book.

If the birding communty dislike the number of birds in cages or aviaries, which I know many of you do, why don't you form a voice to. The answer isn't to release the non UK species into the UK countryside.

Personally I hate the captive bird of prey world, they have lost control of their sport of falconry. Its the Falconry Centres that have supplied the back garden keepers & now they are breeding birds to. Its out of control & it cannot be pulled back to be legislated & that's how it is! Sad isn't it.

Our Centre does not breed birds we work to rescue them & thats not by choice I promise you. I'd prefer to see a wild bird than a caged one. Because of what we deal with on a daily basis at our Centre we have the more common species, these are kept here & from this we study them & this is also done when they are flown in natural conditions. This helps us to understand what we are dealing with & helps when we get called out to an escapee.

Still no answers to my questions on page 16