Eagle Owls in Yorkshire?? (1 Viewer)

[Pugs]

Maybe you need to get the ball rolling and answer the questions first ;-) but I would guess that most people would be interested in the 'wild' aspect to your questions.

 

[London Birder]

I'm surprised the BTO refer to EO's as a feral species ... completely against the current definition of what constitutes a feral species under the BOU

 

[Barn Owl Centre]

I'm surprised the BTO refer to EO's as a feral species ... completely against the current definition of what constitutes a feral species under the BOU

Thats my agruement, no proof of migrating, they have studied feral birds & have rung the young who are wild. What gave them the right to do this without consulting others!!!!!!!! It makes me mad.

 

[Edward woodwood]

way too much of;

I think
I feel
I believe
if this...
if that....
I doubt that...
waaaay too much speculation.

If the RSPB et al adopt that approach and are very laissez faire about it, in a few years time if it goes Pete Tong everyone will be up in arms about it.

we don't need to create a problem - there are already enough to be going on with. EO are doing fine in their historical range on the continent and expanding nicely. Lets concentrate on the species here and overseas that need the help.

 

[StevieEvans]

way too much of;

I think
I feel
I believe
if this...
if that....
I doubt that...
waaaay too much speculation.

If the RSPB et al adopt that approach and are very laissez faire about it, in a few years time if it goes Pete Tong everyone will be up in arms about it.

we don't need to create a problem - there are already enough to be going on with. EO are doing fine in their historical range on the continent and expanding nicely. Lets concentrate on the species here and overseas that need the help.

Well they've had 10 years worth of oppurtunity to work out what that particular pair have been & are eating :-

In the tv programme, the Yorkshire pair were shown eating rabbits, but little is known about what else is eaten by that pair or others elsewhere in the UK.
Julian Hughes
Head of Species Conservation
RSPB

Thats a pretty poor performance imho.

we don't need to create a problem

Again Pure speculation, this time on your part.

waaaay too much speculation.

You seem to thinK you have the best crystal ball of all.

Maybe you could have said " We dont need to risk creating a potential problem" ?


I Can see both sides but shouldnt it be a case of
Innocent untill prooven guilty.......?

Quite possibly by then all the Ruddy Duck Marksmen will be looking for a new target....

SE

 

[Edward woodwood]

no Syteve

you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick

my entire point is that no-one can know what will happen so the precautionary principle should come into play... no one has a crystal ball

 

[London Birder]

it maybe a small point but terminology occasionally creates confusion and hinders the progress of the discussion ...

with regard to the RSPB' reference to EO's being 'feral', and from the recent BOU cat c definitions/reclassifications >

'the BOU follows the terminology and definitions set out by Holmes and Shroud (1995), including the terms 'feral', 'domestic' and 'naturalised'. The keeping of a species in captivity does not neccessarily constitute domestication. Feral species have undergone change during captivity ('domestication'), whether for plumage, behaviour, economic productivity or just ability to breed in captivity. 'Feral' is therefore used when referring to a naturalised establishment that originates from a domesticated source, for example Rock Dove (Columba livia) was domesticated and underwent considerable change from which a feral form (Feral Pigeon) has since established itself in the wild. However, an established population of a species such as Barnacle Goose (Branta leucopsis), where the naturalised population originates from captive birds that have not undergone any form of change during captivity, is a naturalised establishment and not a naturalised feral establishment'.

Be nice to see the relevent bodies singing from the same hymn sheet...

 

[breffni]

I have had a good look around the literature and can find a number of examples where the reintroduction of a top level predator, even after extended absence (100s of years), has had a positive or neutral effect on the prey species. The reason is because (1) the predator removes genetically weaker animals, (2) the prey polulations become less prone to boom and bust cycles (when prey species devestate their own habitat), (3) the prey species adapts to the presence of the predator (eg by becoming more cautious), and (4) top level predators are generally adapted to low populations and so tend not to proliferate (their populations tend to track the prey populations (cf Lotka-Volterra model). So in theory top level predators should have a top-down regulatory effect on the whole ecosystem. However there is no doubt that a top level predator could have an adverse impact on vulnerable populations eg what if they discovered a certain great bustard population?

 

[Anthony Morton]

Vince, we agree that there has to be more legalisation concerning captive breed stock. All owls need to be licensed like the diurnal birds and people who simply release these birds, banned from owning them etc

Hi Pugs,

Although I can see where you are coming from, it would be very difficult to prove that an EO (or any BOP come to that) had been deliberately released (abandoned) into the wild. Even if the owner could be traced, all he would need to say is that he released his bird in the full expectation that it would come back to him when called - but it didn't and was lost!

As for banning future ownership, wouldn't it be a bit too late by then?

Anthony

 

[IanF]

In the tv programme, the Yorkshire pair were shown eating rabbits, but little is known about what else is eaten by that pair or others elsewhere in the UK.
Julian Hughes
Head of Species Conservation
RSPB

This was stated in the program but for some reason they didn't state the diet of these birds has been studied since they were first located. The bulk of the diet (90%) is rabbit followed by Jackdaw and Crow. They have been known to take the odd Red Grouse which are pretty numerous in the area, but literally one or two a year based on pellets and carcases.

As regards suitable nesting sites this area let alone the rest of the Yorkshire Dales has any number of limestone cliffs.

Other BoP nesting very close by (within 500 yds) have been Buzzard and Hen Harrier though the nest of the Harrier failed failed last year.

I must admit that I'm not too concerned about the origin of these birds. They have been in place for at least ten years having adapted to living in the wild even if they weren't origianlly and certainly their young are wild birds. Even the adults should perhaps be accpeted for what they are - just how long does it take to attain citizenship?

I think it's only right the birding authorities have to be very careful in accepting species onto the British list. In order to maintain the integrity of the Birtish list I can appreciate why they may not hold in high stead some of the older records as when they were recorded I doubt the authors expected the sceptics as to ID that we have today - if so then I think fuller descriptions would have been included.

Regardless maybe if there were a few more breeding pairs or more birds living wild located then they would be accepted more.

 

[david kelly]

Just to note that amid the discussion about the birds in the film there have been previous records of Eagle owls breeding in the UK. They are known to have nested in northern Scotland in the 1980s but failed to establish a population. Again, these were regarded as escapes or released birds.

If there is a single pair then without "new blood" the population will eventually dwindle and die out. The Red Kite population in Wales had its growth hampered by inbreeding until a new bird from Germany joined the population and then one of the Scottish reintroduced birds moved to Wales too.

However, I believe there are other Eagle Owls out there and I don't think the supply of "escapees" has dried up. All over northern and western Britain there is suitable habitat and prey. There are also a lot of people who would kill them, whether that was legal or not, especially if lambs or pheasants were at stake.

David

 

[talon]

i think that the eo should be accepted in to the british list it has been her for the past ten years and no one has seen anychange in the population of buzzards barn owl or other species if it were left to me then i think that eo would be a good choice to keep the rabbit population down and if there is speculation about wether or not the eo should be accepted to the british list then y have the bto been ringing them i am a ringer myself but surely the bto sohlud have had some permission from the rareties commity or the bou to ring themringing had proven use ful by proving that the eo do move great distances like one of the chick from the yorkshire pair did in fact travel to shropshire now that is a considerable distance traveled and there has been many reports stating that people have seen eo coming into the coutry on the coast but all have been dismissed by the RC i may be only 15 but i still have a point of view

 

[London Birder]

hi Talon,

just because it's been here for the past 10 years (breeding, one pair) doesn't qualify it for inclusion on the British list (see BOU website to find out why) ...

you say no one has seen any change in Buzzard/Barn Owl numbers ... where? In reference to which of the '40 pairs' ?

the BTO have been ringing young EO's to, presumably, gain recoveries in the long or short term to illustrate any movements, I'd be fairly sure all the permission they needed was given ... a single recovery out of 20 plus young isn't spectacular and a movement to Shropshire indicates little apart from a bird flew to Shropshire!

many reports of EO's coming in off the sea? and presumably all rejected on account of insufficient detail or confusion with LEO/SEO ...

at 15 your as entitled to your opinion as anyone

 

[London Birder]

with respect to all who've posted, am I the only one thinking we've possibly talked this one into the ground?

come on, none of us can say 100% where UK EO's are from, but I'm betting we're all in agreement that a bloody large percentage are escapees or released by fed-up owners ... against that backdrop, anyone wishing to further the cause of wild occuring EO's in the UK (or bird/s from the re-intro near continent population) is going to have to come up with the goods, or they are pishing into the wind ... there's too much contention to expect the RSPB, BOU or anyone else for that matter to be falling into the 'expansion into the UK' theory just yet (though of course some do) ... that may change, maybe some glorious morsel of undisputed fact will come to light, maybe they have or will expand into the UK, assumption is just assumption ...

None of us appear to really know what the figures are of birds/pairs at large in the UK (1 pair bred, 2 pairs bred, 3 pairs bred, 11 breeding pairs, 40 pairs, many escapes) or at least I'm certainly more than a little confused by some of the numbers I've seen that don't add up to what's on the official breeding record, do these reports of 40 'pairs' constitute a paired male and female, or simply two birds in the same area? am I repeating myself? yes ... are people just going out and locating EO's and not bothering to submit the record?

We also know that the authorities aren't going to be shooting EO's and are in fact keeping an eye on however many they know about (?) so that IF it came to pass that EO was having a detrimental effect, something more reasonable could be done ... the shooting issue doesn't exist although I dare say there are many that would shoot one.

all the arguments about the UK being conducive to EO biogeographically are of course valid, but pointing out that bones from the Pleistocene exist means nothing ... no doubt they'd do well if the gene pool is healthy enough combined with the few (if any) limiting factors the UK would present EO's ...

what's the problem?

for those worried about negative impacts ... watch out for monitoring results, feed whatever info you personally hold to those that need to know, shed some light ... whether EO's turn out to be relatively 'benign' in the UK than the studies should show that, if not then so be it ...

as for ticking, that's for everybody to decide for themselves ...

 

[Amarillo]

Julian's post is a measured and responsible reply as is the RSPB's position

I don't think many people are disputing that the RSPB's (now clarified) position is a sensible one.

I think many people (myself included) just felt that they came across as overly negative on the TV programme - and by clarifying their position it would seem the RSPB is admitting that!

Talk of eating corncrakes & comparisons with American crayfish are more what I would expect to read in the Sun, than what I would expect from the RSPB.

I also think it was irresponsible of the BBC to advertise the fact that the birds were not protected - which they also clarified in the repeat broadcast.

 

[London Birder]

agreed on both counts, but to take that further I think the onus on keeping schtum about the legal status of these birds should be attributable more to the 'bird people' than the BBC, highlighting them at a time when they weren't afforded legal protection could be construed as being irresponsible and I have to wonder why ... if I'm honest I think the TV show could've waited a while longer before going to air and I question why it was (at least until such time as there was something concrete to say about the EO ecologically <in the UK> other than 'they' are breeding) ... maybe the whole point was to promote debate

 

[CornishExile]

with respect to all who've posted, am I the only one thinking we've possibly talked this one into the ground?
......

......
as for ticking, that's for everybody to decide for themselves ...

Agree with all you said there, LB. The debate's just retreading the same ground now. As for your final point, were I at all cynical I'd think that was the reason that some people (not naming names, mind ) were pushing the genuine immigrant / overseas colonist / multiple breeding pairs story... :h?:

ce

 

[StevieEvans]

Agree with all you said there, LB. The debate's just retreading the same ground now.

Hi Ce
I disagree, new information has been added from post 409 onwards, including IanF's first hand experience of the pair in question.
&, new posters... who are just as entitled to air their view as those of us whove followed the thread from the start.

As for your final point, were I at all cynical I'd think that was the reason that some people (not naming names, mind ) were pushing the genuine immigrant / overseas colonist / multiple breeding pairs story... :h?:
ce

Agree with you here mind, Yeah, to some sad souls, thats all they want out of it (tick).
SE

 

[SirWulf]

I don't think many people are disputing that the RSPB's (now clarified) position is a sensible one.

You evidently have not read all the comments on the Birdguides website under their news article about the Yorkshire birds. Plenty of people castigating the RSPB in no uncertain terms, and threatening to withdraw support (either financial or voluntary work) from them.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Plenty of people castigating the RSPB in no uncertain terms, and threatening to withdraw support (either financial or voluntary work) from them.

As I pointed out earlier, anybody doing this needs a kick up the arse, then asked to open their eyes to the legendary amount of good work they have done and continue to do.

An opinion expressed on one program vs 100 of the best bird reserves in Europe (not forgetting all the other sterling work they do conserving and showing people birds) ...wonder which I think holds more weight?