El Cheapo here, what do you think of my plans? (1 Viewer)

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

I am mostly new to photography, but I have one community college course under my belt. I've always been interested in birds, just started photographing them a couple of years ago with a point and shoot Lumix FZ150 that I got second hand for under $100. I wasn't sure I'd keep taking bird photos, but I think I am hooked now. Link to my media.

Glancing through the gallery, I am envious of your shots, especially the BIFs. There is a lot to learn before I can get shots like that. I think the point and shoot FZ150 has enough settings to fiddle with to keep climbing the learning curve for the time being. In the next 6-12 months, I am thinking of upgrading to a MFT system for around $0.5-1K. I am wondering if in the time frame, a used G85 wil drop enough to make that happen, or I'll go with the G7. I think the 100-300 mm lens will do me just fine. Does that sound like a good plan? Also, do used camera prices drop after Christmas, after most people obtain new gear?

Thanks in advance.

 

[njlarsen]

I think you could do worse than G85 w 100-300. I am shooting the G85 with the larger lens (100-400) and generally am happy. With the 100-300 lens, the thing to be aware of is that zooming back just a little (to around 275) improves the sharpness a good deal.

I do not have experience with the used camera market so cannot comment on that. But do keep your eyes open around the black Friday period.

I am including a link to page 18 of my photos in birdforum. Back then I was shooting with a GH2 and the 100-300 lens. The GH2 was definitely poorer than the G85 with low iso performance.

Media added by njlarsen

www.birdforum.net

If you instead go to my recent images, they are with the G85 and the 100-400.

you probably already have made similar searches, but the G85 seems available for less than $500 used

https://www.mpb.com/en-us/product/panasonic-lumix-dmc-g85

https://www.mpb.com/en-us/search?q=Panasonic%20Lumix%20G%20Vario%20100-300mm%20f%2F4-5.6%20II%20Power%20O.I.S.

Niels

 

[Nature Group Costa Rica]

Most of us go to the same thing! Whether upgrade every year or so. At the end of the road (3-4 years later) we have spent the equivalent of a better set-up. Save money hold on for a year and then go all the way to a much better set-up... It's rather frustrating to see limited images. Wait until you collect enough you would be a much happier photographer.
Randall Ortega
www.naturegroupcr.com

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

I think you could do worse than G85 w 100-300. I am shooting the G85 with the larger lens (100-400) and generally am happy. With the 100-300 lens, the thing to be aware of is that zooming back just a little (to around 275) improves the sharpness a good deal.

I do not have experience with the used camera market so cannot comment on that. But do keep your eyes open around the black Friday period.

I am including a link to page 18 of my photos in birdforum. Back then I was shooting with a GH2 and the 100-300 lens. The GH2 was definitely poorer than the G85 with low iso performance.

Media added by njlarsen

www.birdforum.net

If you instead go to my recent images, they are with the G85 and the 100-400.

you probably already have made similar searches, but the G85 seems available for less than $500 used

https://www.mpb.com/en-us/product/panasonic-lumix-dmc-g85

https://www.mpb.com/en-us/search?q=Panasonic%20Lumix%20G%20Vario%20100-300mm%20f%2F4-5.6%20II%20Power%20O.I.S.

Niels

Thank you, Niels. I have gone through your images already . I was wondering if you shot with a G7, but it looks like you went from GH2 to G85. The G7 does not have body IS, so I am inclined to go with G85 at minimum. I've started investigating OM systems as well. I am currently fascinated with BIF, so OM seems to have a leg up with their phase detection.

• I wonder if the second generation 100-300 Pana/Leica is better at the full focal length?
• I am suspicious of black Friday. For TVs at least, manufacturers make a run of lower spec products just for sale on that day. So, the "special deal" isn't all that special. I don't suppose it is worth it for them to do with cameras.

Most of us go to the same thing! Whether upgrade every year or so. At the end of the road (3-4 years later) we have spent the equivalent of a better set-up. Save money hold on for a year and then go all the way to a much better set-up... It's rather frustrating to see limited images. Wait until you collect enough you would be a much happier photographer.
Randall Ortega
www.naturegroupcr.com

Thank you Randall, I know what you are saying; that is a trap that is easy to fall into. I am currently unemployed, so my wife will kill me if I buy a camera every year. For bird photography, phase detection AF seems to be the way to go, but I have to spend over $2k USD in most cases for that. For a hobby, that is a lot of money. Whatever I go with, I'll try my best to wring the most performance out of it. I think it is best to develop one's skills instead of depending on tech to improve. But you have a point. Maybe an OM-1 will be useful for 10 years, while a lesser kit will last 4. I'm not used to owning expensive things, so I will lose my mind if something like that gets stolen.

There is also the nagging question of "if I had a better camera, would I have missed that shot?" I had a wonderful opportunity to get a California Condor in flight. I got a shot, but it was overexposed and soft focus. Opportunities like that may only come once in a lifetime.

 

[njlarsen]

The G7 does not have body IS,

I am not sure this is such a big deal. The lens has IS, so you will get 75-85% or the possible IS with just the lens. To my mind, the low light performance of the camera being steadily improved as you go to later generations is a bigger reason to go to the G85 over the G7.

It is correct that I stayed with the GH2 for a long time and switched to the G85 next (something that indirectly supports what Randall said: I had something that worked for me, and I did not need to follow the next year update pattern). My next step up could be the OM1 or it could be a brand-new Pana if they make a birding oriented stills camera in the future. (The interviews I see indicates they are leaving that part of the market for OM ... -- though they say it less clearly).

When I bought the G85, the G9 had just come on the market, but my feeling was that I could not argue with my wife to justify the higher priced model and I have been happily discovering ways of improving my shooting even with the model I got without changing for the next model.

I am suspicious of black Friday.

I at least am not aware of any specific black friday models.

phase detection AF seems to be the way to go

I am less sure that phase detection for still photos is that important - more important is really fast and accurate AF. Panasonic just introduced their first ever model with phase detect: their reason was Video AF, not Stills AF. When I am considering the OM1 for my next camera, it is in part because of the phase detect, but first and foremost, the reason is the AI based bird focusing mode, where the camera is able to detect a bird and even more importantly is able to detect the head and the eye of the bird. The camera is thereby able to make sure the focus is where on the bird we want it. Most slightly older models including the G85 and most of the olympus models that predated the OM1 would focus on the nearest part. That meant for a flying bird that you often would have focus on the nearest tip of the wing rather than the head which you would prefer. If you want to go above the G85 and not jump all the way to the OM1, I would look carefully at the Pana G9 and the Olympus OM-D EM-1 mk 3. These, however, would be above your current budget, just like the OM1 is above your current budget. (by the way, it seems the G9 had a major update after being in the market for a while, so I would look for recent reviews and not the ones from when it came out).

I wonder if the second generation 100-300 Pana/Leica is better at the full focal length?

I do not have specific info on this, sorry. One could hope that the quality control was improved - for first generation, there was talk about some individual lenses being better than other lenses labeled the same way.
Niels

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

I am not sure this is such a big deal. The lens has IS, so you will get 75-85% or the possible IS with just the lens. To my mind, the low light performance of the camera being steadily improved as you go to later generations is a bigger reason to go to the G85 over the G7.

It is correct that I stayed with the GH2 for a long time and switched to the G85 next (something that indirectly supports what Randall said: I had something that worked for me, and I did not need to follow the next year update pattern). My next step up could be the OM1 or it could be a brand-new Pana if they make a birding oriented stills camera in the future. (The interviews I see indicates they are leaving that part of the market for OM ... -- though they say it less clearly).

When I bought the G85, the G9 had just come on the market, but my feeling was that I could not argue with my wife to justify the higher priced model and I have been happily discovering ways of improving my shooting even with the model I got without changing for the next model.

I at least am not aware of any specific black friday models.

I am less sure that phase detection for still photos is that important - more important is really fast and accurate AF. Panasonic just introduced their first ever model with phase detect: their reason was Video AF, not Stills AF. When I am considering the OM1 for my next camera, it is in part because of the phase detect, but first and foremost, the reason is the AI based bird focusing mode, where the camera is able to detect a bird and even more importantly is able to detect the head and the eye of the bird. The camera is thereby able to make sure the focus is where on the bird we want it. Most slightly older models including the G85 and most of the olympus models that predated the OM1 would focus on the nearest part. That meant for a flying bird that you often would have focus on the nearest tip of the wing rather than the head which you would prefer. If you want to go above the G85 and not jump all the way to the OM1, I would look carefully at the Pana G9 and the Olympus OM-D EM-1 mk 3. These, however, would be above your current budget, just like the OM1 is above your current budget. (by the way, it seems the G9 had a major update after being in the market for a while, so I would look for recent reviews and not the ones from when it came out).


I do not have specific info on this, sorry. One could hope that the quality control was improved - for first generation, there was talk about some individual lenses being better than other lenses labeled the same way.
Niels

Wow, thank you for the detailed reply. I read the entire G9 thread on this subforum. There was one post that linked to a test between the OM-1 and the G9 for BIF, and the OM-1 was the winner because of phase detect. I have read in other places that DSLRs tend to be the gold standard for BIF because of phase detect. Now, would I be unhappy with a G85 when I am upgrading from a 12 year old point and shoot? Unlikely. However, I do take you and Randall's point about wanting to upgrade sooner if you are several generations behind.

When I get some income again, this will be an easier decision. I think I will still visit the camera shop and see what used cameras they have, as well as look for deals online. Thanks again for trying to educate me, it will take a little time for all that to sink in.

 

[walwyn]

I've used Pansonic FZ series bridge cameras since 2006. First one was an FZ30 then since laterly a FZ200. I will probably replace it with an FZ2000 sometime this year. For birds I found that the FZ was a bit slow at focussing when trying to photograph birds flitting to and fro on feeders. OTOH I got reasonable shots when the birds were more stationary. The FZ200 is a different beast but I still don't really do much bird photography mainly spend my time on macro photography of insects.

The reason I've stuck with bridge cameras is because I know what I'm like. I'll start adding kit that I'll think I'll need but don't. Back in the film days I ended up with a large bag of lens to tot about, including all sorts of other gubbins. It's no fun lugging a 10kg on your shoulder, plus a tripod. Additionally if out with anyone they'd be half a mile away as I changed lens or filters etc.

Today I just walk about with the camera with a Raynox clipped on the front, and for sure there are things I miss but I'm not going to end up spending 2K on a lens that I may only use twice a year.

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

I've used Pansonic FZ series bridge cameras since 2006. First one was an FZ30 then since laterly a FZ200. I will probably replace it with an FZ2000 sometime this year. For birds I found that the FZ was a bit slow at focussing when trying to photograph birds flitting to and fro on feeders. OTOH I got reasonable shots when the birds were more stationary. The FZ200 is a different beast but I still don't really do much bird photography mainly spend my time on macro photography of insects.

The reason I've stuck with bridge cameras is because I know what I'm like. I'll start adding kit that I'll think I'll need but don't. Back in the film days I ended up with a large bag of lens to tot about, including all sorts of other gubbins. It's no fun lugging a 10kg on your shoulder, plus a tripod. Additionally if out with anyone they'd be half a mile away as I changed lens or filters etc.

Today I just walk about with the camera with a Raynox clipped on the front, and for sure there are things I miss but I'm not going to end up spending 2K on a lens that I may only use twice a year.

Thank you, Walwyn. I am quite averse to lugging around weight myself, which is why I am looking at Micro 4/3. Where the bridge camera shines is portability, affordability, simplicity. Just grab and go. I prefer to go on holiday with only a backpack, so the bridge camera is well suited for minimalist travel. The small sensor and its low light performance is what is driving me towards a larger sensor. I like the top end bridge cameras with 1" sensors, like the FZ2000, but the zoom is a little bit less than I like. That leaves only the Sony RX10 iv. And for that price, I think I'd rather move up to Micro 4/3. I wish Panasonic put out a 1" bridge camera with more zoom. I admire that you know yourself well and found something that works for you. That's where all of us want to be.

 

[walwyn]

The FZ200 has F2.8 throughout its zoom range. If you really need extra zoom then a TCON17 takes my 640mm FZ200 to 1000mm. Wife has a FZ72 which is 20mm-1200mm put the TCON on and you're at 2000mm (needs special handling though). It's not going to match a Nikon lens but then a Nikon 200-400mm is going to cost £2.5K. As for low light I've been using the Topaz software for almost a decade and they've recently released Photo AI which has combined automatic denoise, sharpening, and image resizing. Which is impressive I rarely need to intervene in what it is doing. It even handled a shot where I'd managed to put the iso to 3200 and gave me a reasonable web image.

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

The FZ200 has F2.8 throughout its zoom range. If you really need extra zoom then a TCON17 takes my 640mm FZ200 to 1000mm. Wife has a FZ72 which is 20mm-1200mm put the TCON on and you're at 2000mm (needs special handling though). It's not going to match a Nikon lens but then a Nikon 200-400mm is going to cost £2.5K. As for low light I've been using the Topaz software for almost a decade and they've recently released Photo AI which has combined automatic denoise, sharpening, and image resizing. Which is impressive I rarely need to intervene in what it is doing. It even handled a shot where I'd managed to put the iso to 3200 and gave me a reasonable web image.

Thank you, that is a very nice image indeed. Good point about the TC as well.

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

@njlarsen how is the 100-400 to handle, as far as getting birds in flight in frame? Does its size/weight take longer to acquire to bird, or is it just a matter of getting familiar with the lens? Thanks.

 

[njlarsen]

@njlarsen how is the 100-400 to handle, as far as getting birds in flight in frame? Does its size/weight take longer to acquire to bird, or is it just a matter of getting familiar with the lens? Thanks.

It works well for me. The weight is not a problem. One trick I have learned that works for me, is that I do not place my left hand at the zoom ring but all the way out on the extended lens (the lens lives in at 400 mm end most of the time). This allows me to hold the combination more steady, especially noticeable in videos but also for keeping the bird in the center when doing series of regular shots.

Regarding birds in flight: there is always a trade off: the more you zoom in the more difficulty there is with keeping the bird in the frame and the better the results when you succeed.
Niels

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

Regarding birds in flight: there is always a trade off: the more you zoom in the more difficulty there is with keeping the bird in the frame and the better the results when you succeed.

Thank you, Niels, everything you said makes sense. The 100-400 lens is ~1kg, so it's much lighter than aiming a full frame lens, or a rifle, for that matter. Once you find your favorite holds, you can probably handle everything you aspire to.

As I am fooling around with my 600mm equivalent bridge camera, I get greedy, then miss my shot. Sometimes I remember to zoom out for a better chance at capturing the bird. It's better to have something than nothing, but there is also the temptation to get that "money shot."

 

[Dyrlege]

I looked over my old DSLRs and associated objectives and not least their bags a few years ago, and decided enough was more than...
First try was a used Leica v-lux2 just to get the feel of things (around GBP 120). Nice improvement, but elderly. Next was a newer model (V-lux 4 at stunning GBP 300), nice improvement but still oldish, complemented it with a Panasonic TZ95: what a change! I was really hit hard by the improvements and new developments on the electronics side, optics remained as before but zoom range doubled from the stated 600 mm eqv in the V-lux 2&4 to a partly synthetic 1200 mm+. Lovely, but not capable enough for birds in flight.
After getting lots of (good) advice, esp on the advantages of M43, and being happy with the Leica/Panasonic optics and menus I settled for a G9 with a 14-140 and a 100-400 mm objective, stretching optic range to 800 mm eqv, used and at an acceptable price.
Just arrived...
More to follow.

 

[robinlanark]

Hi, still there?
I had the Canon SX70 for a half a year and was super pleased with it. It cost me about $600CDN but I had worked up from cheaper cameras that I had for years, just like your plan. It is a great idea to go slow and work on technique and have pleasure while you learn.
And I have now taken the leap to MFT, the Pana G9 with the 100-400 zoom. It is MUCH harder to use and get photos from, at least so far, and I really miss how easy it is to get that distant record shot. But I'm happy I sold that gem and went for the quality shots. 95% of my SX70 and other bridge camera shots were a bit fuzzy or grainy and the improvement with the larger sensor has been well worth it (after about a month of learning). I now get shots I like 50% of the time, and I'm still improving. The way it's going I can see getting a used full frame some day. View attachment PANA4162.JPG

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

Hi, still there?
I had the Canon SX70 for a half a year and was super pleased with it. It cost me about $600CDN but I had worked up from cheaper cameras that I had for years, just like your plan. It is a great idea to go slow and work on technique and have pleasure while you learn.
And I have now taken the leap to MFT, the Pana G9 with the 100-400 zoom. It is MUCH harder to use and get photos from, at least so far, and I really miss how easy it is to get that distant record shot. But I'm happy I sold that gem and went for the quality shots. 95% of my SX70 and other bridge camera shots were a bit fuzzy or grainy and the improvement with the larger sensor has been well worth it (after about a month of learning). I now get shots I like 50% of the time, and I'm still improving. The way it's going I can see getting a used full frame some day. View attachment 1610187

Yup, going used is the way to go. There is always someone with more money and less patience than you. I executed on my plan August 2023 and purchased a used Olympus E-M1ii and M.Zuiko 100-400 lens. Plus a 25mm lens for "regular" photography. Total cost was about $2K, and I used it almost every day since then. You can read about my year with it here: Upgrading from Bridge Camera to M43

There was an adjustment period because there are so many more settings to tweak. I suspect your hit rate will go up. What I miss most about the bridge camera is the light weight and compactness. Photographically, I am getting much improved AF, lower noise, and advanced features like Pro Capture. I am going after challenging shots that just wouldn't have been possible with my older camera.

G9 is a capable camera, just give it some time. Thanks for your reply, and happy photographing!

 

[Dyrlege]

Hi, still there?
I had the Canon SX70 for a half a year and was super pleased with it. It cost me about $600CDN but I had worked up from cheaper cameras that I had for years, just like your plan. It is a great idea to go slow and work on technique and have pleasure while you learn.
And I have now taken the leap to MFT, the Pana G9 with the 100-400 zoom. It is MUCH harder to use and get photos from, at least so far, and I really miss how easy it is to get that distant record shot. But I'm happy I sold that gem and went for the quality shots. 95% of my SX70 and other bridge camera shots were a bit fuzzy or grainy and the improvement with the larger sensor has been well worth it (after about a month of learning). I now get shots I like 50% of the time, and I'm still improving. The way it's going I can see getting a used full frame some day. View attachment 1610187

That is BEAUTIFUL!

 

[Dyrlege]

The G9 is working as promised, and I seem to be getting the hang of the 100-400 freehand. It is awesome!
Not quite robinlanark-quality yet, but getting somewhere.
Per

 

[robinlanark]

That photo is one of the best of a thousand I've taken. (I've taken many others that I like but are not so wonderfully sharp.) And I don't know yet why they don't all come out like that! 😆 Ive been playing with aperture priority vs shutter speed priority as well as relearning depth of field control so at least I know something works.
I will say that many more shots come out with a score of 90% while most of my Canon SX70 shots were 75%, so I'm happy with that already.

 

[MelospizaMelodiaFan]

That photo is one of the best of a thousand I've taken. (I've taken many others that I like but are not so wonderfully sharp.) And I don't know yet why they don't all come out like that! 😆 Ive been playing with aperture priority vs shutter speed priority as well as relearning depth of field control so at least I know something works.
I will say that many more shots come out with a score of 90% while most of my Canon SX70 shots were 75%, so I'm happy with that already.

That one with the blue jay, I think the light was just at the right angle to give you all that detail in the feathers, and I bet you were within 5 meters of the subject. It doesn't always happen, but there are other things that can make a photo great. The BIF of the cranes; it looks like the bird in the back is more in focus? Which focus points/pattern were you using? If you had centered the birds, perhaps they would be more in focus. I get shots like this all the time .Also maybe the shutter speed could be higher based on the blur of the wingtips. I know sometimes you don't have enough light for the SS you want to use.