FLUSHING BIRDS FOR TICKS RIGHT OR WRONG? (1 Viewer)

[Steve]

FLUSHING BIRDS FOR TICKS RIGHT OR WRONG ?

# I Took This part of another thread, I find it Interesting what are your views?


DISCUSS




"QUOTE"
"Later the same day Lee Evans did a controlled flush for the Whites thrush and we were on the Scillonian at the time. I and a few others rang RBA to object but it still went on. Later that day he did another controlled flush and I have to plead guilty to being there"

Controlled Flush What EXACTLY is this???

 

[Raydes]

Sorry Steve

I am not with you?
But for me the only controlled flush is!
Birders of any kind that doesn't feel that the first priorty is!
the birds well beeing?should be flushed in the toilet LMAO

Is this correct?

 

[Raydes]

Sorry Steve,and all.

For Me this kind of behaviour makes me angry.
I think they mean chasing the bird out of his shelter to tick it on there lists.

Correct me if i am wrong

 

[Steve]

I Agree Raymond, But who decides to do a "controlled flush" and why? and what basis do they work this flush on? do they all have a vote and say " its time it was flushed"?

 

[Raydes]

I was not so active last years but as i recall,when I was involved in twitching here in Belgium it was done sometimes.
I must admit I remember that I myself was not really against it some 10 years ago.
And over here it was a little bit different i remember,and i think until now the biggest twitch ever was in 1988 Greater Spotted Eagle (was involved)between 200 and 500 people saw this bird.
But more often you can say that there are around 150 Twitchers now @ max (personal opinion)
So it's really different here most of the time they now that the majority of twitchers have seen the bird.
And then it was easyer to persuade a lesser crowd to flush the bird for better views or whatever reason Photo's/ringing??
I think as long the bird is not continuously flushed the stress is limited.
I had a discussion many years ago with a birder who went hiking & birding togheter with his dog (not on a line)
His opinion was that his dog did no harm to the birds because he saw it as a replacement of a wolf (he didn't used the dog to flush) don't misunderstand me.
So final stress is normal in animal life but we can not afford to misuse it.

 

[Steve]

Is it not better to wait for the Bird to move on its own?

 

[Ashley beolens]

Steve, Raydes and anyone else, I am by no means a pro flusher but when you have 200-300 birders looking for a bird it does get quite tense, however people like Lee evans, do whats called a controlled flush, so that the birds do not get harrased over and over by everyone, If its flushed 2 times in one day it will not overly harm the bird. In the cases mentioned you had two different examples first the Siberian thrush, which was in a smallish clump of bushes that it could hide in, some people tried to move it out gently to get a look, but it was not moving and a free for all began, and i believe carried on over its stay, which meant that at any time a birder wanted to, they could walk through the bushes and disturb it. The second was a Whites thrush the day after the Sibe turned up (which is part of what made that week so exciting) The flushes of this bird were organised to be at set times and most birders could be there for them, which resulted in far less disturbance to the bird and most people seeing it. Which would you prefer a nice space between being disturbed or consatnt action, I know my choice.

We can all agree that it is better to see a bird in a natural way, but some times this is not easy and we all get frustrated some times. I personally didn't care to much to watch the Whites thrush flushes as I had spent a lot of time and money going to see one on Lewis (one of the western isles), we had a much better view of the bird performing a stunning little dance, we assume to try and bring worms out of the ground, but like most things it is not always possible and some people will go farther than others to see a bird.

Right or wrong it is going to happen, and i for one would rather a controled flush.

 

[Steve]

Good points ashley,

But is it right to flush a bird so 200 twitchers can see it? and what
constitutes a controlled flush? does the bird understand it's controlled? or flee for its life? and lastly Who decides who is the Man to do it? is it a " I know what Im doing Thing"?

 

[Paul Rule]

I'm with Raymond on this one, It's not on to have your birding ruined by having everything scared out of site, because of some fanatic trying to flush out a possible rarity so they can tick it.

I dont think it does much for the birds wellfare either.

 

[Ashley beolens]

Steve, I will try to answer your questions in order but I may ramble.

"But is it right to flush a bird so 200 twitchers can see it?"

Depends on if I'm there or not! only kidding. Its a very hard ethical question, I would say everyone has at some point flushed (scared) a bird, usually not on purpose, does it harm the bird? well I wouldn't think so, if it was frightened constantly and never allowed to settle then it would but most of the time the birds just relocate to somewhere else.

"what constitutes a controlled flush? "

Well a small amount of people (amount depends on the size of the area the bird is in) walking calmly through the area trying to move the bird into the open, no one involved in a flush would want the bird to fly off completely just come out from a bush etc.

"does the bird understand it's controlled? or flee for its life? "

Well as i said in answer to the previous question, it is only meant to move a bird from a hiding spot into the open not to scare it completely, generally what happens is people walk slowly through looking for movement, when the bird is located it is gently pushed into a position where it can be seen more easily. So it is not usually scared for its life.

"Who decides who is the Man to do it?"

Its usually the most confident birder, There are in this country a hardcore of well known, and experienced birders whom all know each other and are the people usually helping out at twitches, and to some extent controlling them, Lee is a good example of this as most people know him he can act as spokesman.

 

[Steve]

Thanks Ashley I appreciate you taking the Time to answer my questions, which you did very well and openly.

Has there in your expierience ever been an incident, where you have thought that a bird should of been left alone?
and if a bird had just flown in from somewhere and was hungry and exhausted, who decides that its ok to Flush it? or do 200 + twitchers want it flushed anyway? I can see a war breaking out one day between the flushers and the leave alones?

 

[Ashley beolens]

Yes I have seen times I thought a bird should be left alone, The Sibe thrush on Gugh in 1999, It was horrid the way people just gave no thought to the bird, I saw it on the first evening, briefly, in flight, but I refused to go back as it was unfair the way the bird was treated, The second day was far worse from what I heard. One thing that should be remembered when most rare birds are seen, they have recovered enough from thier flight, to be feeding actively, most birds migrate by night so when they are seen it is after they have recovered enough not to just sit. I think most birders respect the birds enough to not want to harm them so if the birds were in a poor or tired state I doubt the majority would allow the minority to risk harming the bird.

As for who decides that a bird needs flusjing it is usually the majority of twitchers who have been waiting for a few hours and are "desperate" to know if it is still there.

I doubt a war would ever break out as most people who are anti flushing will just walk away perturbed, rather than risk a conflict with loud and agressive flushers!!

 

[KC Foggin]

In my humble opinion "First do no harm" should be the birders motto as well. Is it impatience on the photographers part that leads them to this? I don't believe the photograph should be the first priorty over the birds well being. I'm not even sure I agree with the act of "pishing" anymore. Is there any lasting harm done. No, I am sure there is not but where do some draw the line. I would rather sit there patiently and if I am rewarded..wonderful. If not, then I try again another day.

 

[nigelblake]

KC Foggin's reply shows some abject missunderstanding of the fact that it is never in a photographers best interest to disturb/flush a bird, all to often photographers are blamed, they should not be confused with people who carry cameras, there is a big difference! sadly I had a fine example yesterday of the inconsideration shown by other birders, I had taken over an hour of slow considered waiting, in camouflaged clothing, for the tide to rise and push some Purple Sandpipers to their usual roost position, I was as near as 15 feet after waiting for the birds to come to me, I did get some good images fortunately, before two clodhopping idiots with top of the range scopes + one with a red and one with a blue blue jacket stomped across the shingle to my positition anouncing Blow me mate they're Bloody close, at which point of course the birds disappeared. Fieldcraft is the name of the game, sadly too few birders have a clue what it is.
As for controlled flushes, I have no problem with it from a birding standpoint, as Ashley points out it often leads to less disturbance than constant harassment by impatient individuals, given that many birds turn up in places that are frequented by Dog walkers, joggers, and other members of the public who are largely clueless, a bird with a crowd of birders around it is possibly less, or no more disturbed than it would experience normally.

 

[Reader]

Steve

You must have read my mind when you posted this as I was going to do the same myself. As it is you took a piece out of one of my answers to set this thread off.

Another part of my piece stated the following and was an answer to one of Ashley's earlier postings.

<Regarding the Sibe's argument. Let me guess. If you were there the same day as me would it be something to do with one or two young birders kicking the s**t out of the bushes to flush the bird. I & other birders nearly lost it with these idiots. This bird must have been totally knackered and just needed a rest and these idiots wouldn't let the bird settle. I don't know what you can do with idiots like that. What possesses them with the lack of conscience in disturbing a bird that way.>

I think that gives you an idea on how I feel.

Regarding the controlled flush. Well I felt uncomfortable being there after trying to get RBA to ask Lee not to do it. On this occasion there was a massive build up of birders, and I mean hundreds, and the bird just wasn't showing at all. In the end if a controlled flush hadn't have taken place i think that some birders (and I hate to admit this) would most likely tried to do something about it themselves. I suppose that it was the lesser of two evils, but it still doesn't make it right.

Understanding the fact that hundreds of birders had paid large sums of money to get to the islands hopefully puts the controlled flush into perspective.

I don't agree with using the argument that a dog walker would flush birds therefore it can't be too stressful. There is a big difference here. We are talking of birds that have just completed epic journeys on routes that would have taken them well off course, not birds that are ensconced in there own habitat. They will be exhausted and need of rest and any flushes, regardless of controlled or not, are not really in the birds interests. But if you have two evils only to use you have to go for the lesser, as telling any birder who has travelled miles for that bird to forget about the bird, because it won't come out, just isn't going to happen.

 

[Ashley beolens]

Can I ask, KC do you feed birds, if you do what is the difference between that as a method for attracting birds and pishing? neither harms the bird, well pishing doesn't sometimes feeding birds does (dependancy, overfeeding young etc.). All pishing does is activate the curiosity of a bird, its their inqusative nature that brings them to you, sorry bit off topic.

 

[nigelblake]

The Dogger's and joggers argument is extremely valid, having been in Norfolk last autumn for the huge fall of passerines, when the beach from Holme to titchwell was littered with exhausted Flycatchers, Wheatears, Whinchats, it was these very people who despite being asked to avoid disturbing the birds ignored al explainations and did their thing anyway, not to mention the Kestrels and Gulls that feasted on a good few knackered migrants.
Don't get me wrong, I would far prefer to see birds left alone, but set against the usual daily hazards of a birds daily life, I do not feel that this is quite the problem it is being perceived as.

 

[KC Foggin]

I feed the birds during the coldest days of winter and during breeding season. I agree with you there Ashley. When I saw how many of the weaker birds were still surviving with eye disease I realized feeding them was not always a good thing.

 

[Booga]

I just have to say here, as today proved a point, that if you flush then you are akin to those who photograph Owls in bird zoos/ sanctuarys.

Camberley Red, I stress as a joke, when we heard, what we eventually agreed was a Water Rail, said ' or we could chuck a brick into the reeds and get it'. Please, before anyone judges Paul, I stress it was a joke. This then led onto a conversation about the deeds of Mr. Evans, and we were unanimous in our discussion that flushing is wrong.

I don't care how many birders are there, how rare the bird is, if it isn't natural, you didn't see it.

 

[Ashley beolens]

Right on the same line, is ringing/banding right or wrong?

It is very harmful for birds to be caught up in a net, scared half to death and then handled by man (which often leads to feather loss) yet it is perfectly acceptable to ring in migrant hot spots, surely these birds are more worn out than at any other time?

I Still feel most people think that a controled (and to some extent uncontroled) flushing is as bad as it is being made out, with some obvious exceptions, IT IS NOT done to scare birds simply to push them into a location where they can be seen. Also it is not done to many birds, on the many twitches I have been on I can think of only 3 times (2 of which I mentioned earlier), in fact most often birders do wait patiently for the bird to show, It is generally reserved for birds that are very sculking, but that will feed in the open. I have been on more twitches where birders have stopped people going too close to a bird as it was not needed (sorry Nigel usually photographers trying to get the perfect shot), or stopping dog walkers disturbing it.