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FoV Measurement and an Anomoly (1 Viewer)

Tringa45

Well-known member
Europe
Warning! Here's another boring optical thread, so read no further if that's not your cup of tea. ;)

It's seldom necessary to measure the true field of view of a binocular, but I was interested in another aspect which I'll explain later. Binocular manufacturers' specifications are usually quite reliable.
Amateur astronomers using various telescopes and eyepieces are often interested in angular fields of view and sometimes measure them with the transit times of a star across the field.
However, I think accurate results can be obtained terrestrially more easily and binoculars with their short objective focal lengths can be measured indoors.
To do so, a stable base (tripod) for the binocular is required and a long ruler or tape measure at a moderate distance. It's easy to find the maximum FoV by panning (vertical measure) or tilting ((horizontal measure). View through just one barrel.
The distance, "d" is measured from the binocular's objective lens to the target and if "w" is the measured width on the scale, the field of view at 1000 m would be 1000.w/d.
To get the value in feet just multiply by 3. Some marketing people have been known to convert metres into feet overlooking the fact that the FoV is then quoted at 1000 yds. and not at 1000 m!
If the angle of view is required that woud be 2.arctan (w/2d). For scopes with a narrow FoV, (360.w/2.Pi.d) would give a very close approximation.
To obtain the multiplication factor of a barlow lens it was merely necessary to divide the numerical FoV without the barlow by the FoV with the barlow using the same eyepiece.

On most Porro binoculars close focus is achieved by racking out the eyepieces but as few of them have very close focus capabilities one would not expect much influence on FoV. However. the objective lens of a 6x18 Zeiss monocular can be extended by 4 cm for a close focus of about 25 cm. The magnification is then around 9x with a corresponding loss of angular FoV.
On most roof prism binoculars the distance between objective lens and eyepiece is fixed, so close focus is achieved by an internal focussing element to reduce the focal length of the objective. Consequently I would expect a slight reduction in magnification and a slight increase in angular FoV at short distances.
Two of my binoculars, an 8x33 Kowa Genesis and a 10x42 Swarovski EL SV have close focus capabilities of about 1,5 m and I measured a REDUCTION in angular FoV.
Doubting the accuracy of my measurements I repeated the tests with the Swarovski (spec. 6,4° or 112 m @ 1000 m) and achieved 6,44° at distance and 6,28° close, corresponding to 112,5 m and 109,7 m respectively.
Both binoculars btw have negative focussing elements that shift backwards when close focussing.
Explanations anyone?

I know that one member here has a dynameter with which he can measure magnification, so it would be interesting if the the prediction of a reduction in magnification of a close-focussing roof prism binocular could be confirmed.

Lastly, for those interested in measurement of apparent FoV, here is an old thread A simple and precise method of measuring AFOV

John
 
On most roof prism binoculars the distance between objective lens and eyepiece is fixed, so close focus is achieved by an internal focussing element to reduce the focal length of the objective. Consequently I would expect a slight reduction in magnification and a slight increase in angular FoV at short distances.
Two of my binoculars, an 8x33 Kowa Genesis and a 10x42 Swarovski EL SV have close focus capabilities of about 1,5 m and I measured a REDUCTION in angular FoV.
Doubting the accuracy of my measurements I repeated the tests with the Swarovski (spec. 6,4° or 112 m @ 1000 m) and achieved 6,44° at distance and 6,28° close, corresponding to 112,5 m and 109,7 m respectively.
Both binoculars btw have negative focussing elements that shift backwards when close focussing.
I suppose you didn't initially notice a difference of less than 3% here, but just got interested in measuring?

I'm only guessing here, but optics are generally optimized for normal distances, so is it possible that there's some interaction between the moving focuser and the geometry of baffles or field stops? And do internal focusers move more than, say, the objectives of a Dialyt?
 
I’m sure you have searched available sources that deal with the subject matter, just one example here:
 

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I'm only guessing here, but optics are generally optimized for normal distances, so is it possible that there's some interaction between the moving focuser and the geometry of baffles or field stops? And do internal focusers move more than, say, the objectives of a Dialyt?
That is indeed a possibility and yes, internal focussing elements are usually quite weak so would require long travel.
In the case of the 42 mm Zeiss SF they are just single positive elements but allow 1,5 m close focus.
My old 7x42 SLC has a fixed front +ve element and a moving doublet with very short travel, albeit with 4 m close focus.

John
 
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How the heck did you measure the second digit after the comma?
I noted 102,5 cm field @ 911 cm (6,44°) and 16,9 cm @154 cm (6,28°) using an indoor laser rangefinder for the distance measurements.
True, but I doubt it will measure 2 digits after the comma.
I was wodering if the dynameter could provide precise measurements of the exit pupil, as magnification is not only the quotient of the focal lengths of objective and eyepiece but also of aperture and exit pupil.
If the objective focal length at close focus is reduced by the focussing element (rearward movement for a -ve element, forward for a +ve), then one might be able to measure a reduction in magnification from maximum overtravel to close focus.
Posiible candidates in your collection would be Leica Trinovid 8x32 HD or Swarovski 42 EL SV.
With the conventional focus of the Zeiss 6x18 mono there is a very noticeable reduction in exit pupil when extending the objective, from 3 mm to about 2 mm.

Regards,
John
 
Okay ...

Starting from the premise that magnification is the quotient of aperture and exit pupil, here are some measurements with the dynameter.
You will see that things are not as easy as they look at first ...

See table.

It appears that
  • magnification does change with changes in the focus distance
  • between different glasses, the amount of magnification change varies greatly, in my measurements between 0.6% and 13.16%
  • magnification is generally higher at close focus and lower at maximum overtravel, with exceptions
  • the EL SV 10x42 exhibits a "belly" shaped curve of magnification change, with max. magnification at 33.5m
  • the EL SV 8.5x42 exhibits a "belly" shaped curve as well, with max magnification at infinity (not overtravel!)
  • the EL SV 10x50 does not exhibit such a belly shaped curve

John, the interpretation is yours.
 

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Starting from the premise that magnification is the quotient of aperture and exit pupil, here are some measurements with the dynameter.
You will see that things are not as easy as they look at first ...
Wow, Christophe, did you do all that in a couple of hours? Many thanks.
Unfortunately, I'm now more puzzled than ever!

Regards,
John
 
I have some star separations to one part in 5,000.

However, I don't mount the binoculars on tripods.

Because it is difficult to know when the star is exactly at the edge the best estimates are usually about 1% accurate, although sometimes 0.5%., which gives credence to a second decimal place.

But, unfortunately, the eye pupil has a size and is not a point source, so this increases the field size.

Also using two eyes give slightly larger fields.

And persistence of vision slightly bigger fields.

Different eye prescriptions probably influences field size.

I don't know if the methods used above overcome some or all of these factors.

It is worth putting in the second decimal place, although the field is not accurate to the second decimal place.
Usually results are given to one decimal place.

I find that Leica are usually accurate in their specs.

Regards,
B.
 
Wow, Christophe, did you do all that in a couple of hours? Many thanks.
Unfortunately, I'm now more puzzled than ever!

Regards,
John

If I add data for three well known Porro I binoculars in the order:

Model / diameter ER short focus / magn short focus / diameter ER max overtravel / magn max overtravel / % change in magn. infinity > short

I get:

-SE 10x42, 3.9mm / 10.77x / 4.2mm / 10.0x / 7.7%
-Habicht 10x40, 3.43mm / 11.66x / 3.9mm / 10.26x / 13.65%
-Jenoptem 8x30, 3.42mm / 8.77x / 3.74 / 8.02x / 9.33%

As expected, changes are overall larger in the Porros than in the roof binos.
Which tells me that with roof binos, you can design them to stay much closer to the specified magnification, irrespective of focus distance. Right?

Canip
 
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Thanks. Yes, those results are in line with what one would expect.
With a near object the distance between eyepiece and objective has to be extended to bring their respective focal planes back into coincidence.
The large variation of the Habicht compared to the SE can probably be attributed to a better close focus or larger focus overtravel past infinity.
I think the comparative consistency of roof prism bins is a by-product of making them waterproof by using an internal focussing lens.

Regards,
John
 
I'm sure there's an interesting story there. So very different from SF 42, just a few years on... why? (Dialyts had objective focusing decades ago...)
 
What is the advantage?
I'm sure Zeiss didn't make that change for no reason.
I'm sure there's an interesting story there. So very different from SF 42, just a few years on... why? (Dialyts had objective focusing decades ago...)
Just a little speculation:-
Zeiss felt the need to match or surpass the specifications of the direct competition.
If we assumed the objectives had a focal length of around 120 mm, then the eyepieces of the 8x32 and 10x32 SFs would have focal lengths of 15 mm and 12 mm respectively.
Eyepieces of this focal length offering >65° AFoV and 19 mm eyerelief would be very complicated by binocular standards and take up a lot of space.
Low close focus values can be achieved by either a poweful focussing lens or a long travel of the focussing lens.
If there were no longer room for the latter, a weak fixed positive singlet and a moving doublet objective would make sense.
That the close focus of the 32 SFs does not match that of the 42 SFs would offer some support to this conjecture.

John
 

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