Ducks are far far more prone to wild hybridisation of course...being one super species in effect... yuck...
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Genetic Integrity. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Anthony Morton
- Start date
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
Tim, yer right
- and we had just this discussion about these problems in another thread a short time ago - don´t remember where it was located though...my brain´s like a sieve at the moment and some bits are not big enough to get caught...
Jane , that´s one of the things I find fascinating about ducks- allthough some drive you nuts when you want to find out what they are...
by the way, what about big gulls?? that can be equally nice and frustrating in one -like ducks
- and we had just this discussion about these problems in another thread a short time ago - don´t remember where it was located though...my brain´s like a sieve at the moment and some bits are not big enough to get caught...
Jane , that´s one of the things I find fascinating about ducks- allthough some drive you nuts when you want to find out what they are...
by the way, what about big gulls?? that can be equally nice and frustrating in one -like ducks
Suricate. Your post 14. I spoke to my pigeon fancier friend today, he says that (for instance) a Harris Hawk has no protection under WCA Sect 69 Schedule1 or 4 as it is a non-native species, and no matter what breed it happens to be, any bird of prey wearing "ownership" rings has no protection inder Schedule 1 of the Act as it is not a wild bird. PS. Don't shoot the messenger !
Hi Joe,Joe North said:
I fully understand what you are saying but obviously anyone shooting a registered bird of any species could face prosecution be it civil or criminal law.
Even species classed as pests can, if shot bring prosecutions and such a case was highlighted some months ago when a man was reported for shooting starlings in his garden with an airgun.
As with game keepers if they are not caught then they can get away with murder shooting and poisoning birds of prey but it does not make it right.
I know a few good pigeon fanciers who understand the predation problems on their pigeons and obviously they are concerned by the predation of racing pigeons but they would not turn to shooting or poisoning them.
suricate
nirofo
Well-known member
The so called Falconers who are breeding these Frankenstein like birds and ALLOWING them to escape into the environment to interbreed with the PURE RACE are totally irresponsible. So, what do we do to stop this happening, another Ruddy Duck type cull of Heinz Peregrine, RSPB and Government backed of course, or do we nip it in the bud now and stop the Falconers. It's an interesting scenario, lets see how many Falconers / Breeders reply to this?
nirofo.
nirofo.
Hi nirofo,nirofo said:
My personal view is that there is no need for hybids and any used in Falconry should either be stopped completely or stronger legislation put in place to control the numbers flown and even tighter controls of what they are flown at.
I am disgusted that people are still permitted even under licence to fly at such species as skylarks.
As this thread is related to hybrids the whole issue and possible consequences are relevant.
suricate
Anthony Morton
Well-known member
QUOTE = nirofo
... So, what do we do to stop this happening, another Ruddy Duck type cull of Heinz Peregrine, RSPB and Government backed of course, or do we nip it in the bud now and stop the Falconers....
nirofo.
Hi nirofo,
I believe a cull of any kind is out of the question, simply because it is impossible to accurately distinguish between a 'pure' peregrine falcon and a peregrine hybrid by visual means alone.
I would support nipping the problem in the bud with an outright ban on the breeding and flying of all raptor hybrids as you suggest. As has already been mentioned, however, it may already be too late and the genetic integrity of several of the UK's indigenous raptor species has (perhaps) already been compromised.
If this is so, then it is impossible to 'wash' the impure blood out completely, only dilute it, in which case it will leave an indelible fingerprint on the affected birds DNA profile for evermore. And that's the problem!
Anthony
... So, what do we do to stop this happening, another Ruddy Duck type cull of Heinz Peregrine, RSPB and Government backed of course, or do we nip it in the bud now and stop the Falconers....
nirofo.
Hi nirofo,
I believe a cull of any kind is out of the question, simply because it is impossible to accurately distinguish between a 'pure' peregrine falcon and a peregrine hybrid by visual means alone.
I would support nipping the problem in the bud with an outright ban on the breeding and flying of all raptor hybrids as you suggest. As has already been mentioned, however, it may already be too late and the genetic integrity of several of the UK's indigenous raptor species has (perhaps) already been compromised.
If this is so, then it is impossible to 'wash' the impure blood out completely, only dilute it, in which case it will leave an indelible fingerprint on the affected birds DNA profile for evermore. And that's the problem!
Anthony
Andrew Rowlands
Well-known member
Anthony Morton said:
Anthony,
Another sweeping generalisation?
Andy.
Anthony Morton
Well-known member
QUOTE=satrow
Anthony,
Another sweeping generalisation?
Andy. QUOTE
No, this is what's called an opinion - MY opinion!
Anthony,
Another sweeping generalisation?
Andy. QUOTE
No, this is what's called an opinion - MY opinion!
To me its simple.
1. ban all artificial hybridisation of falcons
2. ensure that all hybrids are chipped and databased
3. criminalise the release of hybrids (and others)
4. leave the wild birds to get on with it... If any hybrids are fertile, and many really can't be.. the odd stray gene will quickly get diluted out.
The hybrids that are most likely to be fertile are the Perergrine X Barbary or X Prairie which are only just speciated (sometimes debatably) and might be expected to have stray genes in the wild population anyway.
1. ban all artificial hybridisation of falcons
2. ensure that all hybrids are chipped and databased
3. criminalise the release of hybrids (and others)
4. leave the wild birds to get on with it... If any hybrids are fertile, and many really can't be.. the odd stray gene will quickly get diluted out.
The hybrids that are most likely to be fertile are the Perergrine X Barbary or X Prairie which are only just speciated (sometimes debatably) and might be expected to have stray genes in the wild population anyway.
Edward woodwood
Member
Birds should be flying free in the wild
the only reason for people to 'keep' birds is to support endangered species breeding programs,
didn't want to enter this debate but:
keeping birds is NOT in any way letting nature take its course despite Anthony saying this is what he believed in!....and is the root of this problem as was the keeping of Ruddies at Slimbridge
the only reason for people to 'keep' birds is to support endangered species breeding programs,
didn't want to enter this debate but:
keeping birds is NOT in any way letting nature take its course despite Anthony saying this is what he believed in!....and is the root of this problem as was the keeping of Ruddies at Slimbridge
leighjauncey
Well-known member
It is a lot to do with the legislation regarding owning wild species of raptors that has led to the production of so many hybrids- the same stringent rules of licensing do not apply thereby making them much more attractive to deal in. Apart from the natural phenomenon of hybrid vigour, hydrids do not offer much advantage over any natural species. I agree very much with the views on responsible ownership. There are a lot more irresponsible dog owners than raptor owners and their dogs do far more harm environmentally than a few escaped hybrid falcons, the numbers of which are comparitively minute.
nirofo
Well-known member
Hi leighjauncey
I never thought of dogs harming the environment, can you enlighen us on how they do this, is it the mess they make in the park or on the causeway that causes this environmental damage, or maybe it's the occasional stray that worries a few of the local cats, or could that be the local cats worrying the stray dogs. HMMMM, don't know.
nirofo.
I never thought of dogs harming the environment, can you enlighen us on how they do this, is it the mess they make in the park or on the causeway that causes this environmental damage, or maybe it's the occasional stray that worries a few of the local cats, or could that be the local cats worrying the stray dogs. HMMMM, don't know.
nirofo.
leighjauncey
Well-known member
Dogs do make a mess of course but in my experience the 'worrying' and killing of nesting wildfowl and roosting waders is far more harmful. Perhaps it is not the case in North Scotland but irresponsible dog owners/walkers disturb a lot of nesting birds on my local moors. This is an aside really. Has anyone any data on genetic variability in wild falcons of any species? I would think in the USA where the population crash of peregrines was worse than the UK the resulting genetic bottleneck, similar to that suffered by cheetahs several thousand years ago, would leave the population possibly benefitting from a bit of extra variation. I don't think it's a good thing for hybrid, captive bred falcons, to mix with the wild populations but there are a lot more pressing problems for wild raptor populations. To suggest that the captive breeding and flying of hybrid falcons should be banned suggests a lack of understanding of i) the potential for wild hybridisation and ii) the magnitude of the practise.
Edward woodwood
Member
to suggest that captive breeding and flying of hybrid falcons should be banned suggests a lack of understanding etc etc...also suggests a basic philosophical difference on our approach to our relation to birds.
I wouldn't want to ban it though....in an ideal world it wouldn't need legislating against
I wouldn't want to ban it though....in an ideal world it wouldn't need legislating against
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In an ideal world we woundnt` need speed cameras, or to lock our doors at night or fear for our grandparents every time they go to the shops!!. It is in many cases beneficial to keep and breed to release certain species worldwide and this has been proven. Tighter controls are needed to ensure anyone keeping any species keeps it correctly. But in my opinion there is no need to breed hybrid species, you cannot improve on nature. Already many bird species ( 1200 ) are in serious threat of decline why not concentrate on protecting them and not adding to the problems. Is there room or need to re-introduce the Great Bustard ?
Suricate
Suricate
Jasonbirder
Jason-occasional-twitcher
Eeeek!!! Who says we need speed cameras in this world!
Jasonbirder
Jason-occasional-twitcher
I don`t know where this thread came from? Hybrid Falcons is an Animal Welfare issue not a conservation issue. The number of Hybrid Falcons compared to wild birds is tiny, the number of escaped Hybrid Falcons is tiny tiny and the number of escaped Hybrid Falcons which breed with wild Falcons is tiny tiny tiny (well Zero really!)
Falconers who feel the need to artificially inseminate various combinations of Gry/Lanner/Lagger/Saker to produce the "ultimate" bird do need legislating against - because its a cruel and unnecessary thing to do, not because of some ridiculous notion that they`re all going to break out and interbreed with our native Peregrines!! I`ve heard some ridiculous notions in my time but that one really takes the biscuit!!
In the time i`ve spent Birding i`ve seen One probable Saker in the wild - and that was because someone told me where it was and I made the effort out of curiosity as against hundreds and hundreds of wild Peregrines - not exactly a major problem, particularly when you think that escaped Falcons are unlikely to mate succesfully with wild birds.
Falconers who feel the need to artificially inseminate various combinations of Gry/Lanner/Lagger/Saker to produce the "ultimate" bird do need legislating against - because its a cruel and unnecessary thing to do, not because of some ridiculous notion that they`re all going to break out and interbreed with our native Peregrines!! I`ve heard some ridiculous notions in my time but that one really takes the biscuit!!
In the time i`ve spent Birding i`ve seen One probable Saker in the wild - and that was because someone told me where it was and I made the effort out of curiosity as against hundreds and hundreds of wild Peregrines - not exactly a major problem, particularly when you think that escaped Falcons are unlikely to mate succesfully with wild birds.
Anthony Morton
Well-known member
QUOTE = Jasonbirder
I don`t know where this thread came from?
That's an easy one to answer - I started it as you would know if you've read Posting No. 1
Hybrid Falcons is an Animal Welfare issue not a conservation issue.
Not so. It is only an animal welfare issue when they are in captivity. It becomes very much a conservation issue once they are living, and possibly breeding, in the wild.
The number of Hybrid Falcons compared to wild birds is tiny, the number of escaped Hybrid Falcons is tiny tiny and the number of escaped Hybrid Falcons which breed with wild Falcons is tiny tiny tiny (well Zero really!)
Do you have a quotable source for this statement, or is it just your opinion?
Falconers who feel the need to artificially inseminate various combinations of Gry/Lanner/Lagger/Saker to produce the "ultimate" bird do need legislating against - because its a cruel and unnecessary thing to do, not because of some ridiculous notion that they`re all going to break out and interbreed with our native Peregrines!! I`ve heard some ridiculous notions in my time but that one really takes the biscuit!!
I agree with you about the need to legislate against breeding raptor hybrids either for profit or just for the hell of it. I also agree that it's unnecessary. But cruel? Now that's another question entirely and certainly one that would be an animal welfare issue if true and therefore not part of this thread.
As for the (quote) "...ridiculous notion that they're all going to break out and interbreed with our native peregrines!!" and "I've heard some ridiculous notions in my time but that one really takes the biscuit!!", where did this idea come from? As far as I'm aware, you are the only person to suggest this.
In the time i`ve spent Birding i`ve seen One probable Saker in the wild - and that was because someone told me where it was and I made the effort out of curiosity as against hundreds and hundreds of wild Peregrines - not exactly a major problem, particularly when you think that escaped Falcons are unlikely to mate succesfully with wild birds.
And that is exactly why I started this thread. You say that you've seen (quote) ..."hundreds and hundreds of wild peregrines" - but have you? How can you be so sure that one, ten or one hundred of them were not 'pure' peregrines
but peregrine hybrids or even a non-indigenous species altogether? I can tell
you the answer to that one - you can't!
As for your suggestion that (quote) "...escaped falcons are unlikely to mate successfully with wild birds", how can you be sure, especially if they are both from the falco genus? In my opinion it may already be too late. Don't forget it is known to have happened in broadwings between the Redtail Hawk (Buteo jamaicensis and a Common Buzzard Buteo buteo for example.
I believe this thread has brought up many vaild comments and provided an interesting exchange of information, thoughts and ideas. To simply scoff at this in such a dismissive manner is an insult to those who have posted and does you no credit at all.
I don`t know where this thread came from?
That's an easy one to answer - I started it as you would know if you've read Posting No. 1
Hybrid Falcons is an Animal Welfare issue not a conservation issue.
Not so. It is only an animal welfare issue when they are in captivity. It becomes very much a conservation issue once they are living, and possibly breeding, in the wild.
The number of Hybrid Falcons compared to wild birds is tiny, the number of escaped Hybrid Falcons is tiny tiny and the number of escaped Hybrid Falcons which breed with wild Falcons is tiny tiny tiny (well Zero really!)
Do you have a quotable source for this statement, or is it just your opinion?
Falconers who feel the need to artificially inseminate various combinations of Gry/Lanner/Lagger/Saker to produce the "ultimate" bird do need legislating against - because its a cruel and unnecessary thing to do, not because of some ridiculous notion that they`re all going to break out and interbreed with our native Peregrines!! I`ve heard some ridiculous notions in my time but that one really takes the biscuit!!
I agree with you about the need to legislate against breeding raptor hybrids either for profit or just for the hell of it. I also agree that it's unnecessary. But cruel? Now that's another question entirely and certainly one that would be an animal welfare issue if true and therefore not part of this thread.
As for the (quote) "...ridiculous notion that they're all going to break out and interbreed with our native peregrines!!" and "I've heard some ridiculous notions in my time but that one really takes the biscuit!!", where did this idea come from? As far as I'm aware, you are the only person to suggest this.
In the time i`ve spent Birding i`ve seen One probable Saker in the wild - and that was because someone told me where it was and I made the effort out of curiosity as against hundreds and hundreds of wild Peregrines - not exactly a major problem, particularly when you think that escaped Falcons are unlikely to mate succesfully with wild birds.
And that is exactly why I started this thread. You say that you've seen (quote) ..."hundreds and hundreds of wild peregrines" - but have you? How can you be so sure that one, ten or one hundred of them were not 'pure' peregrines
but peregrine hybrids or even a non-indigenous species altogether? I can tell
you the answer to that one - you can't!
As for your suggestion that (quote) "...escaped falcons are unlikely to mate successfully with wild birds", how can you be sure, especially if they are both from the falco genus? In my opinion it may already be too late. Don't forget it is known to have happened in broadwings between the Redtail Hawk (Buteo jamaicensis and a Common Buzzard Buteo buteo for example.
I believe this thread has brought up many vaild comments and provided an interesting exchange of information, thoughts and ideas. To simply scoff at this in such a dismissive manner is an insult to those who have posted and does you no credit at all.
Edward woodwood
Member
Hi Anthony
you're pretty much correct I think. I would expect thought that if there were lots of hybrids doing the rounds they would be picked up by birders....field ID is perhaps more advanced these days then many people imagine.
I'm not altogether sure that there couldn't be a problem sometime in thew future with escaped/released birds breeding with Peregrines.....for me the chance is too great. I would like to see people stop the practise of keeping birds for their own enjoyment. Don't think legislation would make too big a dent on it as it would probably continue 'underground'.
One of the saddest things about birding in Asia is seeing all the amazing species in the bird markets there....stuff you wouldn't believe...Sibe Thrushes, Chestnut-backed Thrushes, pittas etc....Education, not legislation is the key....but that takes a long time both overseas and over here...how long will it be before keeping raptors etc is seen as unethical?
We all know deep down how a Peregrine or Saker etc should live its life don't we?
you're pretty much correct I think. I would expect thought that if there were lots of hybrids doing the rounds they would be picked up by birders....field ID is perhaps more advanced these days then many people imagine.
I'm not altogether sure that there couldn't be a problem sometime in thew future with escaped/released birds breeding with Peregrines.....for me the chance is too great. I would like to see people stop the practise of keeping birds for their own enjoyment. Don't think legislation would make too big a dent on it as it would probably continue 'underground'.
One of the saddest things about birding in Asia is seeing all the amazing species in the bird markets there....stuff you wouldn't believe...Sibe Thrushes, Chestnut-backed Thrushes, pittas etc....Education, not legislation is the key....but that takes a long time both overseas and over here...how long will it be before keeping raptors etc is seen as unethical?
We all know deep down how a Peregrine or Saker etc should live its life don't we?
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