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Grouse Moors to be licensed in Scotland (1 Viewer)

Strictly speaking there 3 systems in the UK. England and Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland.
True but Irish law (on both sides of the border) is based on English Common Law whereas Scots Law is based on the pre-Napoleonic code Roman Law. I know from experience of dealing with both English and Scots Law how different they are. Something most people outwith Scotland don’t understand.

David
 
Also, criminalized trespass, what are you, the 51st state of the US now? In general, every time I see the UK politics lately, it's quite worrying - and I have a special interest in it, because I grew quite fond of the country after a few visits ...
The civil laws of Tresspass were criminalized in 1994 under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act. It was designed to give police powers to evict travellers/gypsies off private land, break up illegal raves and put an end to hunt saboteurs and anti-road protests. It was a major change in the curtailment of civil liberties in this country.

Extends to England, Wales, Scotland and NI.

Recent changes/amendments as it applies to raptor persecution (sorry about the long quote but it’s relevant to the points Nutcracker raised earlier:)


Investigation, the Police Act 1997 and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) - applicable UK

For detailed guidance on surveillance, prosecutors should refer to the legal guidance on the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) Codes of Practice.

Third parties such as charities and campaign groups and other Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) often conduct surveillance of hunting, poaching and other rural activities. This can include covert surveillance and on occasion trespass on private land. Such surveillance is conducted for their own purposes although they do frequently pass surveillance footage to the police where they believe that a crime has been committed. It has been suggested that such surveillance should not be carried out unless an authorisation has been obtained by the police under Part II of RIPA 2000 and/or Part III of the Police Act 1997.

Where covert surveillance is undertaken by a public authority which is likely to result in that authority obtaining private information, an authorisation should be sought under Part II of RIPA if the surveillance is to be deemed to be lawful. If the conduct of the surveillance involves entry on or interference with another’s property, an authorisation should be sought under Part III of the Police Act 1997.

No authorisation under RIPA or the Police Act needs to be sought where a third party organisation conducts surveillance only for its own purposes. RIPA and the Police Act regulate the activities of public authorities so that those activities do not offend against Article 8 of ECHR.

No authorisation would be required as a means of protecting such conduct from being found to be unlawful where the police neither initiate nor encourage the surveillance even though they may be aware of it. See Rosenberg [2006] EWCA Crim 6.

However, where the police are aware of the intention of the third party to conduct covert surveillance and intend making use of the surveillance product in the event that it reveals evidence of a crime, it would be appropriate to seek an authorisation. This would undoubtedly be the case where the third party is tasked to conduct the surveillance, whether explicitly or by implication.

Where surveillance product is to be relied upon, the question of whether that surveillance was overt or covert and was carried out at the initiation of or with the encouragement of the police in circumstances likely to result in private information being obtained, are questions of fact to be determined in each individual case. Evidence that the organisation undertaking the surveillance has complied with the spirit of RIPA guidance (even if it was not a requirement on that organisation) may be relevant in persuading a court to admit the surveillance evidence.

Where surveillance has been conducted in circumstances which the court determines should have been the subject of an authorisation under RIPA or the Police Act, the absence of an authorisation does not mean that the surveillance evidence will be automatically excluded. The fact that the evidence was obtained in breach of a Convention right is a factor which the court will consider when exercising its discretion under section 78 of PACE.



So how this applies to HH, (afaiu) setting up/installing permanent surveillance is criminal tresspass unless express permission is sought from the landowner (failure to do so could result in being removed from the land by the landowner if they discover covert surveillance- backed up by the police ) and further, evidence of persecution videoed in routine nest and roost surveillance submitted to the CPS by the Police can get thrown out as inadmissible unless the RSPB/SRSPB/raptor conservation group concerned can prove there was no attempt or intention to get evidence for a prosecution when carrying out the surveillance (which is a bit ridiculous given that’s largely the point of surveillance imo!) and that the Police were unaware of the surveillance activities before hand or that the Police had obtained a prior RIPA authorisation for the surveillance.

see eg here - RIPA enshrines in law existing CPS/Fiscal Prosecutor guidance on evidence admissibility:

Until the laws on evidence are changed making it easier for the Police to submit video evidence to the CPS that has been provided to them from the RSPB etc, prosecution for raptor persecution offences will be an uphill slog. At the moment, the system is bent in favor of protecting the rights of landowners/privacy from invasion of privacy from public authorities regardless of which side of the border is the land they occupy or own. A Land Owner can claim, any covert video showing raptors being killed on his land is an infringement of his Human Rights if collected without prior RIPA authorisation, and so get the evidence thrown out of Court. Even if a RIPA authorisation was acquired, the Court will still take into account the law of privacy under Art 8 ECHR.
 
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There was an interesting program on radio 4 the other week, part of a series, probably called 'This Albion' or something about immigration and the like - covered the Enclosures Acts and all that too in that episode.
 
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There is no trespass in Scotland. Scotland has a separate legal system from the rest of the UK. They were converging somewhat due to 300 years of Union but devolution has seen it start to diverge more.


David
There is a difference between civil trespass to which you refer (and the existence or not of civil trespass is actually debatable - not withstanding a statutory right to roam, Scotland does have trespass laws https://www.thompsons-scotland.co.u...-there-really-no-trespassing-laws-in-scotland)
)

and ‘Criminal Trespass’ as provided for under the CJPO 1994 referred to above which also applies to Scotland
 
As always, this is pretty complicated once one sees the legal details (thanks Deb as always for extensive info) Personally I am in favor of privacy protection for individuals in their homes, but extending it to vast tracts of lands is another thing ...
 
Like I said, show me the evidence people track down winter roosts and shoot the birds
Is this a serious request? You would be completely naive to think that raptors and predators in general are not persecuted by gamekeepers throughout their range in the UK. There is little physical evidence because this generally happens in remote areas and in 'private' areas. The evidence is circumstantial but not enough for a 'conviction' if that is what you're looking for.

The classic was the Hen Harrier shot over Sandringham - no doubt it was shot, no doubt it was over the queens estate but no body recovered so no conviction, corpus delicti (I think).

Poison, traps, shooting, baiting, burning, poles all practises used by the gamekeeper. They have one objective and that is to protect the grouse and/or pheasant. Finding the evidence sufficient to convict is near on impossible so you won't get that but to deny it happens is almost Bothamesque denial...
 
The evidence is circumstantial but not enough for a 'conviction' if that is what you're looking for.
It is true, tracking data and birds found shot on or near grouse moors only provides circumstantial evidence but the bar for ‘criminal evidence in law’ is much higher than what the ‘common man’ would reasonably see as evidence that game keepers/landowners are indeed responsible. Actually the evidence is often more than circumstantial but includes video/eyewitness accounts - see my previous post - The lack of convictions is in part also due the rules of evidentiary submissions by the Police and getting evidence provided by eg the SRSPB accepted by the CPS in the first place.

Also, convictions fail in the end possibly for the reasons Nutcracker mentioned earlier in the thread, because of conflicts of interest amongst the political and enforcing parties, although imo, that’s probably the least of the problems.
 
Is this a serious request? You would be completely naive to think that raptors and predators in general are not persecuted by gamekeepers throughout their range in the UK. There is little physical evidence because this generally happens in remote areas and in 'private' areas. The evidence is circumstantial but not enough for a 'conviction' if that is what you're looking for.

The classic was the Hen Harrier shot over Sandringham - no doubt it was shot, no doubt it was over the queens estate but no body recovered so no conviction, corpus delicti (I think).

Poison, traps, shooting, baiting, burning, poles all practises used by the gamekeeper. They have one objective and that is to protect the grouse and/or pheasant. Finding the evidence sufficient to convict is near on impossible so you won't get that but to deny it happens is almost Bothamesque denial...

Indeed - the very reason we nearly lost Red Kites in this country was due to the their communal winter roosting behaviour making them easy to wipe out in large numbers in a short space of time
 
Sorry Deb for some reason I hadn't seen your informative response compared to my very basic response.
Hey don’t apologise! Just because I bang on and on, it doesn’t make your input any less true or valid just because you exceed my skills in brevity!
 
I remember being outraged at the videos of the Hen Harrier at the time. Can't believe the reasons for not prosecuting were that the camera was there for the express purpose of catching someone committing an illegal act, which he did, on camera and willingly and presumably as part of his employment!

I guess this type of law counts in privacy law cases but when it shows a criminal act it should be admissible. Is this akin to some sort of entrapment law or is it to protect against big brother state argument. Maybe the RSPB should post a sign within 3 miles that hidden cameras are positioned to protect 'local' wildlife.

I am not against hunting within certain boundaries and within the strict definition of the word. Driven grouse or pheasant shoots are not hunting - glorified clay pigeon shooting or an arcade game. There is a medium where hunting and nature can co-exist but this is far from the reality. This is the only way that we can move forward with our respective beliefs. As has been mentioned the 'powers' that be have a vested interest in maintaining this ridiculous situation where the scales have been tipped against native creatures for profit and coin.
 
guess this type of law counts in privacy law cases but when it shows a criminal act it should be admissible. Is this akin to some sort of entrapment law or is it to protect against big brother state argument
It’s because Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights enshrined the right to privacy as enacted into UK legislation by the Human Right Act.

(1) Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

(2) There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

No authorisation under RIPA or the Police Act needs to be sought where a third party organisation conducts surveillance only for its own purposes. RIPA and the Police Act regulate the activities of public authorities so that those activities do not offend against Article 8 of ECHR.
This is a really good basic background to RIPA and how it is applied (from another viewpoint)

https://insidetime.org/challenging-surveillance-evidence/


(don’t forget, the Investigatory Regulations doesn’t apply to the RSPB and other groups if they are only using the material from surveillance for their own purposes. It only comes into effect when they submit this evidence to the police, who in turn present it to the CPS for prosecutory reasons.)
 
But was that a "home"? To me that's the weird thing here, I don't think these protections were even meant for large tracts of country used for business, but for private homes.
 
But was that a "home"? To me that's the weird thing here, I don't think these protections were even meant for large tracts of country used for business, but for private homes.
The thing is, privacy laws are about the person not the property, and RIPA is designed to control/restrict surveillance on private land by authorities not just the ‘home’ as in a building. It covers business activities too that are carried out on private land. It’s actually a pretty open scope.

As it happens, these large shooting estates are privately owned land so it doesn’t matter whether they have a ‘home’ on them or not.

Some of the arguments in one case why video evidence was not accepted

The only way round this is to change the law and include breaches of the Wildlife & Countryside Act in exemptions for privacy protection and allow RIPA authority (which is only available at the moment for ‘serious crimes’ ) to be given up front in covert surveillance where surveillance was to gain evidence for prosecution purposes under the WCA and get the Police to explicitly declare the RSPB to be working on their behalf in collecting said evidence. That way, videos will stand more chance of being admissable in Court.

At the end of the day, while the new licensing regime in Scotland will improve habitat protection on grouse moors for wildlife (including the burning of heather under licence) as well as withdrawing licences if raptor persecution were proven, it would still need to be objectively established what constitutes ’evidence’ of raptor persecution - if that is still going to be decided in court, then video evidence (any evidence) will still need to comply with evidentiary rules as discussed - I‘m struggling therefore, to see how the licensing system will increase the chance of convictions in the first place at the moment - the bar for loosing an operating license maybe too high:

As the Minister has stated:

”The basic proposition however is that a licence will be required to operate a driven grouse moor business, and that if there is strong evidence of unlawful activity or serious breaches of codes of practice by that business, then their licence could be withdrawn.”

 
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OMG the prosecution QC was clearly a bit of a muppet! The RSPB should sue him for negligence or at least not pay him...

He was clearly not invested in the case and didn't understand the arguments or background or have an understanding of historic 'similar' cases. I guess this is a result of the defence having the financial backing to have a lawyer who was interested in defending a case (because he is probably a shooter), being paid to do so properly (by the shooting brigade) and obviously had time to prepare.

The arguments he put forward should have left gaping holes for the prosecution to exploit and a couple of points were clear wrong. Even the judge handed a couple of opportunities to the QC and he failed to use them...

The thing that gets me is why doesn't the RSPB have a couple of friendly QC's who would volunteer to prosecute or this kind of case seen, politically, as career suicide...
 
Yeah, here’s the rest of the shambolic case strung together by the Prosecuting QC


The thing that gets me is why doesn't the RSPB have a couple of friendly QC's who would volunteer to prosecute or this kind of case seen, politically, as career suicide...
That’s not how it works unfortunately.

In criminal cases the Prosecutor is not representing the complainant/plaintiff party but is representing the Crown in the breach of Statutory law. There is no ‘vested interest’ - the Barrister is employed by the CPS not the RSPB. Once the evidence for a case has been handed over to the Police the RSPB have no say. The Police, on advice from the CPS on the merits of the case, decide whether to press charges then pass the case onto the CPS who will prosecute the case. In criminal cases, the CPS instruct the prosecuting Barrister - the Defence Barrister is instructed by the accused’s Solicitor or by the accused directly. The RSPB have no representation.
 
Thanks Deb again.

I'm wondering if the 'strong evidence of unlawful activity or serious breaches of codes of practice' test has been applied to any application of license...
 
Thanks Deb again.

I'm wondering if the 'strong evidence of unlawful activity or serious breaches of codes of practice' test has been applied to any application of license...
The licensing scheme is not even up and running yet - the newspaper article in the opening link is a bit misleading when it says ‘now’ moors have to operate under licence.

In actuality there has only been an announcement of ministerial intention so far in response to the Merrity Report (published 19 Dec https://brodies.com/insights/land-a...he-werritty-report-on-grouse-moor-management/)

‘. .. If re-elected, this Government will bring forward the necessary legislation in the next Parliament to license grouse moor management and to strengthen the existing legislation on muirburn, including a range of appropriate penalties that could be applied in cases of non-compliance
...Any new legislation will of course be preceded by full consultation in the normal way”

Full ministerial response to the Werrity Report here


Still plenty of time for The British Association for Shooting and Conservation, Scottish Countryside Alliance, Scottish Gamekeepers' Association, Scottish Association for Country Sports and Scottish Land & Estates to all lobby for amendments once the Draft bill has been introduced (and to continue shooting Mountain Hares until February ☹️)

Until then, it’s just vote bait ...
 
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