• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Guadalcanal Moustached Kingfisher (1 Viewer)

Fair comment at the end there Bailey, but I guess I'm still concerned that you are waiting for 'someone' to pioneer an alternative while you continue to gather specimens. It's that 'waiting for someone else' that it seems everyone is doing in this field rather than actually giving it some serious thought. As I said I seriously doubt it isn't possible....

Mick
 
Fair comment at the end there Bailey, but I guess I'm still concerned that you are waiting for 'someone' to pioneer an alternative while you continue to gather specimens. It's that 'waiting for someone else' that it seems everyone is doing in this field rather than actually giving it some serious thought. As I said I seriously doubt it isn't possible....

Mick

Hey Mick, I'm not a CGI developer or have any background in the kind of scanning technology you're talking about, please cut me some slack. I'm interested in systematics, and I'm going to use the best tools available to answer the questions I'm interested in.

I'm sure there any number of undeveloped technologies that could make the work you do for a living more efficient or more environmentally friendly or better overall, but I wouldn't criticize the work you're doing for not incorporating some undeveloped future technology or software and I wouldn't criticize you for not working to invent said technology or write said software.

It would be one thing if there was a perfectly comparable technology currently available that sufficiently replaces specimens and I was ignoring it, but that isn't at all the case.
 
And Mick, I don't want to come across as sounding too defensive. You sound like a lovely person, and I'm sure we would have a nice time over beers.

And I think you're completely right about the need to develop this kind of technology. I think it will come one day soon. You might be right that it could be done with existing technology, but developing that technology to tackle these kinds of problems would no doubt be pretty expensive. The field of systematics is not terribly well-funded, so it takes a while for cutting-edge technology to become cheap enough to trickle down to us. Sounds like a great grant proposal to me though!

Bailey
 
Ignoring the collecting issue and focusing on the tangent with "hologram" technology:

There are 3D laser scanning software/tools, which are very expensive. There is also photogrammetry, which is a more lowtech tool. However both involve a stationary subject, so would be great for specimens (indeed...my research in the next year or so will focus on using these methods to look at the evolution of the dolphin skull), but not really applicable for something that is still alive and moving. You need an immense number of images from every angle for photogrammetry, and it typically takes several hours to scan an object with a laser scanner (at least something the size of a porpoise skull).

I am genuinely unaware of anything of this nature that works fast enough for field use, and it's certainly something researchers would be interested in. I would rather spend 5 minutes scanning a skull for research than 4 hours, and most of this technology is actually derived from engineering applications, so it's not like there are not interested parties with deep pockets wanting to improve it.

Of course this stuff is good for stuff like beak size and body proportions, but won't capture any color information, which is often of interest in birds. I would also think the "fluffiness" of feathers might hamper its use compared to skeletal morphology, which is what I am most familiar with in its use.
 
Ignoring the collecting issue and focusing on the tangent with "hologram" technology:

There are 3D laser scanning software/tools, which are very expensive. There is also photogrammetry, which is a more lowtech tool. However both involve a stationary subject, so would be great for specimens (indeed...my research in the next year or so will focus on using these methods to look at the evolution of the dolphin skull), but not really applicable for something that is still alive and moving. You need an immense number of images from every angle for photogrammetry, and it typically takes several hours to scan an object with a laser scanner (at least something the size of a porpoise skull).

I am genuinely unaware of anything of this nature that works fast enough for field use, and it's certainly something researchers would be interested in. I would rather spend 5 minutes scanning a skull for research than 4 hours, and most of this technology is actually derived from engineering applications, so it's not like there are not interested parties with deep pockets wanting to improve it.

Of course this stuff is good for stuff like beak size and body proportions, but won't capture any color information, which is often of interest in birds. I would also think the "fluffiness" of feathers might hamper its use compared to skeletal morphology, which is what I am most familiar with in its use.

Exactly. I'm not sure people realize what a difficult problem it is to scan a living bird (the feathers are a big, big challenge) and capture all the size and color parameters that are contained within a specimen. And it's not like most of us wouldn't want something like that...
 
Greetings all. I concur with Bailey's comments wholeheartedly.

A few comments on the idea that digital photography and measurementsof live birds can adequately replace specimen collection:

1) Digital photography has been a godsend to the 21st century in the field of birding, and to a certain extent, ornithology. However there are a few important issues that it cannot overcome, particularly in field use. One is, lighting. Natural lighting is highly variable, depending on the presence and reflectance of vegatation, snow, and other environmental factors, the cloudiness of the sky, and time of day, not to mention the use of flash. All these factors will affect the color shift and saturation of the photo. Then, there are the settings of the camera, which additionally will affect the photo (graininess, brightness, contrast, etc.). Finally, comparing photos is tricky, as most of us view digital photos on computer screens. If you compare the same photo on multiple screens, you will see that there is a color shift from screen to screen! So to use digital photos to compare colors (say, subtle ones such as different hues of browns, olives, or grays) among different individuals is truly not possible given photos alone. Sure you can use a color chart and have computer screens that are calibrated, but the former would require the bird to be in hand and that the photographer have the color chart handy when they are in the field... the latter is very expensive. Regardless, the results may still not be comparable in reality. Having physical specimens side by side really cannot be replaced by photos, even excellent photos, for these reasons.

2) Everyone takes bird measurements differently. If I measure the culmen from the basal edge of the nares of a bird, and you measure it from the base of the culmen where it meets the skull, the two measurements aren't comparable. Tarsi measurements are even more variable in their style among researchers. Many American banders measure wing chord, but I understand most Europeans measure flat-wing length, so those measurements are not comparable. If a researcher took a set of measurements, then released the bird, they could never be replicated. If s/he took only one kind of measurement of culmen or tarsus or wing, it might not be comparable to other measurements of the same species taken by another researcher. Furthermore, measurements take time, and many folks don't like to over-stress a bird in the hand with excessive handling time, so most likely they'd feel pressured to release the bird before getting many different measurement styles for culmen, tarsus, etc. Finally, what if the researcher didn't think to take measurement X on a bird, but that measurement was found to be an important point of comparison in the future? The potential sample size from which X could be taken would not include the older captured birds that were released without X taken. So, measurements of live birds simply cannot be trusted to be comparable among different researchers, they cannot be replicated (unless by amazing stroke of luck, someone recaptures the same individual), and and thus they cannot compare to what one can do with a specimen.

So, anyone on BF who claims that one can photograph, measure, and release a bird live and thus eliminate the need for specimens for side-by-side comparisons and measurements has a fundamental misunderstanding of the shortcomings of those field techniques and clearly has not handled specimens in the context of comparisons of color or measurements.
 
Last edited:
So, anyone on BF who claims that one can photograph, measure, and release a bird live and thus eliminate the need for specimens for side-by-side comparisons and measurements has a fundamental misunderstanding of the shortcomings of those field techniques and clearly has not handled specimens in the context of comparisons of color or measurements.

Again my thanks to Bailey, and now to DLane for adding to my understanding here. I am quite prepared to admit personally to the 'fundamental misunderstanding' DLane intimates in his post above, having never done any of this sort specimen based research despite having handled birds for field measurements.

I say again I was truly astonished that collecting still took place to gather museum specimens.

I remain unsure whether I was just naive in my firm belief that 'collecting' had long since been consigned to the Victorian history books, or whether it is the current collectors who are being naive if they believe what they are doing would stand any sort of broader public scrutiny should the global media decide to turn their eyes in their direction. I personally am certain it would not - and calls for collecting to be banned totally (and irrationally perhaps - rationality having never been the trademark of media scrutiny) would follow.

Does anyone on here from whatever perspective believe that if the tabloid press decided to latch on to this (Daily Rail in the UK for example) the outcome would be "oh, now we understand the need then that's all right - you carry on collecting"? Having a sound scientific reason does not guarantee broad public support any more I'm sure you'd agree (ref GM crops for example).

So Bailey/DLane, if my current work was dependent on the continuation of a practice that could (is to me personally) no longer be acceptable I'd start thinking of alternatives now.

Again my appreciation of your time to explain.
Mick
 
Mick

I do encourage you to read the paper set out below:-

Dear All

As a member of the team on the recent Guadalcanal expedition I feel obliged to say a few words in response to the recent comments on OB and elsewhere.

I’m not going to go into the general importance of collecting here, but will refer readers to some references. Regarding birds see Remsen http://bit.ly/1O5LErc and for more on the general importance of specimen collection see Rocha et al. http://biology.unm.edu/Witt/pub_files/Science-2014-Rocha-814-5.pdf.

Respectfully, Paul Sweet

The paper does not suggest much self-reflection.

All the best
 
Last edited:
When a (in)famous ship collided with a reef in Prince William Sound the CEO of the company that owned the ship said on seeing the Time magazine cover with a photo of an oiled cormorant - "what's all the fuss about, no one died and it's only a ******* bird for Christ's sake". That level of detachment from the 'mood of the times' cost him his job and his company a lot of money.

Reading the paper (thanks Paul) I not only was educated and informed, but was left with the same sense of the author's detachment from the mood of the times. Not sure of the answer my friends, but I'm sure it isn't continued collecting of specimens.....

Mick
 
Reading the paper (thanks Paul) I not only was educated and informed, but was left with the same sense of the author's detachment from the mood of the times.

Mick

An interesting illustration of this. A pizza and a bottle of red with a mate and ex-colleague before today's imminent football. An educated man but with no interest in nature beyond the current concentration on halting global warming.

His response to this story was - 'Christ. That's the plot of Paddington. Though I bet they are not as hot as Nicole Kidman.' (Apologies for his unreconstructed views.)

3:)
 
HBW Alive

Chris Sharpe, HBW Alive, 5 Oct 2015: First photographs and sound recordings of Guadalcanal Moustached Kingfisher.
In Sep 2015, the first sound recordings of Guadalcanal Moustached Kingfisher (Actenoides excelsus) were made by a team from the American Museum of Natural History, and a male was subsequently captured and photographed. The taxon is found only in remote, almost inaccessible forests on the island of Guadalcanal and was previously documented from three specimens (two females and a probable immature male), a female observed in 1994 and several birds heard in 1997. The adult male was unknown to science and remains undescribed. A. excelsus has been considered conspecific with Bougainville Moustached Kingfisher A. bougainvillei, the two being split in the HBW & BirdLife International Illustrated Checklist of the Birds of the World. Preliminary evidence appears to support this decision, and expedition findings should lead to better protection for this Endangered species.
 
I'd forgotten the lower end of the population estimate from BLI, which used DG's information: " Total population estimated at between 250 and 1000 mature individuals within an overall range of c. 1700 km². Only a proportion of this range is expected to be occupied."

cheers, a
 
Just reread the Filardi press release:

"We now have the first photos ever taken of the bird, as well as the first definitive recordings of its unmistakable call. But this find is more than a scientific discovery. For countless generations, the people of Guadalcanal have lived with and known these remarkable and elusive birds. Uluna-Sutahuri people call the bird Mbarikuku, and the older Uluna members of our team all had stories of encounters with it from their youth."

Why didn't Filardi mention the specimen collection in the press release?

cheers, alan
 
On the status of the species in question, it has been classified as Endangered by IUCN and Birdlife http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/species/factsheet/22726883 with the caveats that “ further research may reveal it to be more common” and “there are no data on population trends”. From data provided by David Gibbs an estimate of some 1500 individuals was proposed. Given the amount of suitable habitat within the elevational range of this species (900 to at least 1500 m) this is probably a low estimate. Several individuals were seen and heard (and recorded by Frank Lambert) along an approximately 2 km trail at 1200 to 1400 m. A quick look at Google Earth will show that the habitat at this elevation is undisturbed and consists of at least 20% of the land area of Guadalcanal (total 5,302 km2). With this information we decided that collecting a specimen would have no long term effect on the population.

Paul Sweet claims 1500 here based on DG, but then HBWA gives a range of 250-1000, presumably based on BLI and DG. I need to check further but does anyone else know where the discrepancy arises?

cheers, alan
 
Seriously?

If my eyes were rolling any less right now they would fall out of my skull...

In HBW special volume, p167 Jon Fjeldsa states:
"The few [museums] that still pursue an active collecting policy will, of course, aim primarily to fill in collecting gaps, for instance by covering the least known parts of the world".

I agree, in this sentence at least, with JF and I think it safe to assume AMNH was targeting a region to fill gaps in its collection.

Morgan, are your eyes still rolling?

cheers, alan
 
Critically Endangered?

From todays' HBW Alive Newsletter (No 16):

"We now endeavour to keep information on Critically Endangered species up-to-date as new information is published and rediscoveries are made, like those involving Australia's Night Parrot (Pezoporus occidentalis), the Solomon Islands' Guadalcanal Moustached Kingfisher (Actenoides excelsus) or Colombia's Blue-bearded Helmetcrest (Oxypogon cyanolaemus)."

Has the removal of the single new specimen, now triggered a reassessment of this formerly (merely) "Endangered" species?

cheers, alan
 
AMNH / CEPF

I see AMNH are listed in the partnership section, here:

http://www.cepf.net/partners/Pages/default.aspx

"CEPF has supported approximately 1,999 nongovernmental and private sector partners in conserving biodiversity hotspots. These partners include subgrantees, or organizations and individuals that received CEPF funding d​irectly from our grant recipients"

One might speculate that the "protected area" rationale might have figured large in their funding proposal and whether specimen collection was equally prominent?

cheers, alan
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 6 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top