HBWAlive Key; mission accomplished or mission impossible? (6 Viewers)

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Lazy me!

 

[mb1848]

Timalia
The Key quotes Sundeval 1872 "(Tιμαω et ἡλιος) cultur solis". Alfred Newton A Dictionary of Birds, Part 4 said the derivation suggested is Τιμαω I honour and ἡλιος the sun.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Sundevall's Timelia 1872 [-73] (here) ... "emend. pro Timalia, Horsf." (here, p.487).

If of any use?

/B

 

[l_raty]

The Key quotes Sundeval 1872 "(Tιμαω et ἡλιος) cultur solis".

I wondered what it meant when I read it first... What Sundevall wrote (see link in Björn's last post) was "cultor solis" -- a worshipper of the sun.

 

[James Jobling]

Timalia ... send for the ambulance and the men in the white coats ... fingers, brain, age ..... perhaps I should retire to the seaside ... oh, I forgot, I am already at the seaside!!!!!!!

 

[njlarsen]

Timalia ... send for the ambulance and the men in the white coats ... fingers, brain, age ..... perhaps I should retire to the seaside ... oh, I forgot, I am already at the seaside!!!!!!!

I am going to show my age: when I was in high-school there was a popular melody: "they are coming to take you away .... to the funny farm!"

Maybe they will be coming for me and my colleagues before they pick up you

:-O :-O

Niels

 

[mb1848]

"they are coming to take you away .... to the funny farm!"

was recorded by a descendant of Charles Lucien Bonaparte Napolean XVII . For James retire? There is no retiring from the bird nomenclature gang. This thread is a good example of the Bird Forum process some people come up with some tidbit or other and then Laurent provides a complete answer. This thread helps me understand a song lyric from my youth:
"Wenn ich cultor höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!"

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Let´s stay with the Funny-farm-family Timaliidae ...

Marisca
...
Richmond said that Marisca is a kind of fig.
Page 694 of:
https://books.google.com/books?id=h...CAgQAQ#v=onepage&q="mARISCA" cOSSYPHA&f=false .

Full view (for us Europeans), here:

Marisca GISTEL, ...
New name for Cossypha Vigors ............................................. [Timaliidæ]
Marisca, a kind of fig.

As the (type species ) Chorister Robin-chat Cossypha dichroa is an omnivorous bird, why not?

/B

 

[mb1848]

marisca, ae, f., a large inferior kind of fig. Lit.: pingues mariscae, Col. 10, 415: fatua, Mart. 7, 25, 7;.
Natural history of Pliny said marisca was for a marsh fig.?
Perhaps the fig insides are the same nice warm color of the robin chat?

 

[mb1848]

martini
Hard to search for, Ernst Hartert in Die Vogel P. says Parzudaki martini is nomen nudum “B. martini Bonaparte 1857 (Perm! Wieder keine Beschreibung!) Perm! Again no description!
In other words nomen nudum.
Selys-Longchamps mentions martini on page 123 in same publication where Bonaparte mentions the bird on page 138.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/48710#page/131/mode/1up .
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/48710#page/146/mode/1up .
Parzudaki: https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/104414#page/13/mode/1up . Nomen nudum.



According to Charles d’Orbigny there was a Mr. Martin who told Mr. Hardy something about buzzards.
Dictionnaire universel d'histoire naturelle: servant de compl ..., Volume 3
edited by Charles d' Orbigny on page 47.
https://books.google.com/books?id=q...ARDUS+a.+martini,+Hardy&source=gbs_navlinks_s .
I thought it might have been named for Martin Hinrich Carl Lichtenstein since he described B. vulpinus.
Menzbier in 1887? Ornithological Geology of European Russia has a drawing of B. martini. I have not found it.
Bree mentions M. Hardy, of Dieppe . And he and M. Martin are mentioned many times by des Murs 4th volume of Musée ornithologique illustré : description des oiseaux d'Europe,
Bulletin de la Société zoologique de France, Volume 5
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/110197#page/115/mode/1up .

 

[l_raty]

Menzbier in 1887? Ornithological Geology of European Russia has a drawing of B. martini. I have not found it.

Мензбир in 1882, in Орнитологическая география Европейской России (Ornithological geography of European Russia), p. 353, treated "Buteo martini, Hardy" as a synonym of Buteo vulpinus, Licht.
([Here] - but in snippet view only from outside the US.)
The last plate in this book shows this bird, and is only labelled Biteo [sic] vulpinus, Licht.

 

[Taphrospilus]

It might be worth to reasearch the life of Jacques-Josse Hardy (1798-1863) here in terms of a Monsieur Martin. Maybe more in Catalogue des oiseaux observés dans le département de la Seine-Inférieure from Hardy (but would not fit the area of collection of Buteo martini).

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

It might be worth to reasearch the life of Jacques-Josse Hardy (1798-1863) here in terms of a Monsieur Martin. Maybe more in Catalogue des oiseaux observés dans le département de la Seine-Inférieure from Hardy (but would not fit the area of collection of Buteo martini).

Maybe it doesn't have to "fit the area of collection" ... !?

Simply following your latter link, on p. 122 (here) we find:

65. Mr. Martin, Abel, ancien vérificateur des domaines, à Bellesme, (Orne).
Besitzer einer sehr hübschen Samml. europ. Vögel und Eier. Verfasser
einer noch ungedruckten , in meinem Besitze befindlichen Abhandlung:
„Notes et observations sur quelques oiseaux qui habitent et fréquentent
le Dép. de l’Orne et les pays circonvoisins etc., et sur ceux de quelques
autres localltés de la France.

... and on p. 306 (here), in text, bottom page:

Wie prächtig sich jedoch dergleichen Stellungen ausnehmen, wie sie, wenn auch die Vögel den ganz gewöhnlichen angehören, eine wahre Zierde der Sammlungen sind, beweisen hier im Berliner Museum so manche Präparate des Conservators Herrn Martin, ...

If of any help?

Björn

 

[l_raty]

Maybe more in Catalogue des oiseaux observés dans le département de la Seine-Inférieure from Hardy (but would not fit the area of collection of Buteo martini).

This is it: https://books.google.com/books?id=jmcXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA280
But (indeed) it says nothing about Buteo martini.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

It might be worth to reasearch the life of Jacques-Josse Hardy (1798-1863) here in terms of a Monsieur Martin. Maybe more in Catalogue des oiseaux observés dans le département de la Seine-Inférieure from Hardy (but would not fit the area of collection of Buteo martini).

Martin (i.e. Schneider/"Taphrospilus" ), simultaneously, deliberately or not, you managed to add another (First) name to the guy commemorated in "Lestris hardyi/hardyii" BONAPARTE 1856 (a synonym of the Long-tailed Skua Stercorarius longicaudus).

Well done! :t:

/B

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Maybe this (French) paper can add anything about Mr Abel Martin (if it´s him we're truly looking for) ... ?

 

[l_raty]

Maybe this (French) paper can add anything about Mr Abel Martin (if it´s him we're truly looking for) ... ?

I was precisely looking at the same paper but on Gallica - https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5818104p/f126.image
Jacques-Abel Martin, 8 Jan 1776 in Bellême, Orne - 22 Oct 1863, same place.
He was in close contact with Josse Hardy, which makes him, at the very least, a promising lead.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Regarding Monsieur Jacques Josse Hardy (in my mind; no hyphen):

M. H. Duchaussoy says : “ M. Josse Hardy was born at Bacqueville, in the Pays de Caux, in 1798, and died at Dieppe on 31st December 1863,* after having given to the Museum of the town a magnificent collection of birds, containing notably a very fine specimen of Alca impennis. M. J. Hardy had also brought together a large number of eggs, which had been carefully named. The eggs were deposited in the Museum of Dieppe, to remain the property of his heirs.
[...]

*i.e. Foot-note 1: Professor Wh. Blasius ... gives the date of M. Josse Hardy as 31st October 1863.

[From here]​

Lucky for James (who is content only with the years!)

However; in the same "Supplemenary note on the Great Auk ..." we also find an interesting phrase regarding the obscure Mr Martin (on p.338):

We have noticed that some of the eggs were collected on the Ural Mountains and on the shores of Lake Baikal by Professor Martin of the University of Ekaterinburg. ...

Closer to "the area of collection" ... ?

/B

PS. A lot of Jacques and 1863s! Well, that's it. For today, it's Saturday, a full day has gone by, I need a drink. Why do I think of a (Dry) martini ... ?

 

[mb1848]

Good digging by everyone.
Vincent, T. 1999. Josse Hardy (1798–1863), ornithologue dieppois : parcours d’un amateur et devenir des collections. Pp. 239–253 in Mécènes et collectionneurs. (eds.) Les variantes d’une passion, vol. 1. 121ème congrès national des Sociétés historiques et scientifiques, Nice, 26–31 octobre 1996, Section d’histoire moderne et contemporaine et d’archéologie et d’histoire de l’art.

List of type specimens of birds in the Baillon Collection (La Châtre, France). Part 1. Non-Passerines by Christophe Gouraud 2014.
Scolopacidae Tringa minutilla Vieillot, 1819c: 466. Current name: Calidris minutilla (Vieillot, 1819c). Probable syntype: MLC.2011.0.1018. Pedestal base: ‘Plumage d’été / Terre-Neuve / M. Hardy’ [‘Summer plumage, from Newfoundland, Mn. Hardy’]. Remarks: In closing his description, Vieillot (1819c: 466) mentioned that a specimen is in the Baillon collection. MLC.2011.0.1018 is the only C. minutilla therein. However, Jacques-Josse Hardy (1798–1863), from Dieppe (Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, c.60 km south-west of Abbeville) apparently started his collection when he was 23 (Bouteiller 1878: 423–424), i.e. in 1821, two years after the type description. Hardy is known to have received specimens from fishermen (Vincent 1999), but I have no evidence that this occurred as early as 1819. Therefore, the type status of MLC.2011.0.1018 is probable but not certain.

Description des Lestris Hardy"\
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/48620#page/667/mode/1up .

Description des Lestris de P Océan méridional . — Lettre sur les Œufs des oiseaux, 1861
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/48712#page/53/mode/1up .

 

[mb1848]

We have noticed that some of the eggs were collected on the Ural Mountains and on the shores of Lake Baikal by Professor Martin of the University of Ekaterinburg. .

It must be the person.
On the internet is a picture with this info. (Observatory) Hill. The site, formerly on the outskirts of the town of Ekaterinburg , was first identified as a favorable located for an observatory by the prominent Prussian naturalist Alexander von Humboldt (1769–1859), who visited the area in 1829. Through the initiative of the Russian scientist Adolph Kupffer (1799–1865), construction began in 1834 on the observatory complex, and the observatory was operational by early 1836. I am not aware of a university in Ekaterinburg until 1914 but there must have been some scientific institute there for Prof Martin.
Professor Martin may be Hardy's friend J. Abel Martin. Kupffer was German-Latvian, many of the scientists in Russia at that time were foreign born.