Ignorant Game Keepers (1 Viewer)

[saluki]

In spite of the shooting fraternity, not because of it you will find.

I don't think so. The habitat and the prey species needed for the raptors to survive probably wouldn't be there in the first place if it weren't for shooting interests. It would be nice to think that farmers and landowners would have an altruistic attitude towards the preservation of habitat, unfortunately it is economically impossible for many landowners to maintain habitat without the funds provided by shooting. By all means condemn any 'keeper that kills raptors, you have my full support. But to condemn shooting as a whole and to suggest that the preservation of the countryside by the shooting industry isn't important in the maintaining of wildlife populations is totally wrong IMO.

BTW Jane, have you ever visited a 'keepered estate?

saluki

 

[CDK]

I wasn't aware that I was being uncivilised... just ponting out an argument I believe to be entrirely fallacious that is perpetuated by the shooting fraternity!

Sorry Jane, but I was taught about the countryside by my late grandfather, a gamekeeper. I soon learnt to appreciate the country, and the wildlife, as well as understanding why there must be controls. I recently attended a conference held by the BASC. The most interesting speech was given by a Dr (sorry can't remember his name) from the BTO, which included a scientific paper on the decline in ground dwelling birds, where deer had not been controlled and also a paper on the increase in ground dwelling birds where the deer population had been controlled.

I appreciate that in this day and age, there are many who do not like shooting, and that is their opinion. I am sure that there are many who do not like shooting, but do understand why there has to be controls. How many anti shooting supporters are members of the RSPB, well perhaps you should look at their deer cull numbers, they do not do it for the fun of it but to preserve the birds habitat and in turn the birding population.

 

[nirofo]

Has anyone ever heard of the natural landscape, untouched by human hand, where wildlife and habitat is left to it's own devices and thrives. Difficult to imagine in pound concious Britain but there are still places like this in the so called 3rd world countries, where eating and surviving is the main aim in life, game is killed for food not for man's arrogance or misplaced sense of sporting esteem. As for the keepers maintaining the land for all wildlife, don't make me laugh. Leave the land as it is, let it return to it's natural habitat, remove the sheep so that the vegetation can grow again, let the Pheasants and the Partridges go wild. Maybe in twenty or so years time the Red Grouse will return to the moors, assuming that the Heather ever returns to the constantly burned out moorland. I wonder how all the birds and animals managed to survive for thousands of years before the keepers came along to destroy all those nasty predators and make the land a better place for them to live in ???????????

nirofo.

 

[saluki]

Has anyone ever heard of the natural landscape, untouched by human hand, where wildlife and habitat is left to it's own devices and thrives.
nirofo.

No. Can you point me to it in the UK?

 

[Michael Frankis]

Yes, everywhere, 7,000 years ago

Michael

 

[saluki]

Yes, everywhere, 7,000 years ago

Michael

I'll repeat my question: Can you point me to it in the UK?

You may have a time capsule Michael. I don't.

saluki

 

[Jane Turner]

I can't see any ANY reason why the population of any native species needs to be controlled, with one exception - the export of introduced Hedgehogs from areas with critically endangered ground nesters.

And again.. the argument that shooting estates is a viable or acceptable way to maintain habitat is as offfensive to me as the shooting in the first place. I say again look at the Isle of Man as evidence of what unkeepered land can be like.

 

[samuel walker]

The cull

I don't think so. The habitat and the prey species needed for the raptors to survive probably wouldn't be there in the first place if it weren't for shooting interests. It would be nice to think that farmers and landowners would have an altruistic attitude towards the preservation of habitat, unfortunately it is economically impossible for many landowners to maintain habitat without the funds provided by shooting. By all means condemn any 'keeper that kills raptors, you have my full support. But to condemn shooting as a whole and to suggest that the preservation of the countryside by the shooting industry isn't important in the maintaining of wildlife populations is totally wrong IMO.

BTW Jane, have you ever visited a 'keepered estate?

saluki

KILL em all Many sport fisherman over here are angry with the double crested cornorant claiming they pick off a good amount of "their" precious Walleye (yellowPike )When meeting these cormorant haters I like to remind them that bald Eagles too are a fishing bird and take their share of walleye.The bald eagle is a special bird since it is our national symbol and has had a difficult comeback.To suggest killing ALL the fish eaters usually ends the argument about killing double crested cormorants.
Sam on Lake Erie Ohio usa

 

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

For what it's worth, as a layman, I don't get this argument about habitat and how landowners return the countryside to a state in which raptors can thrive. It's self-serving. It seems to boil down to one thing which I find disgusting and morally reprehensible:

That a human being should take pleasure in the trapping, hunting, killing and shooting of any animal.

Habitat protection? Habitat, shabitat.

 

[Ranger James]

let the Pheasants go wild.

nirofo.

Hi Nirofo,
Would you be getting the phesants thier plane tickets back to the wilds of Asia then?
LOL
James

 

[saluki]

I can't see any ANY reason why the population of any native species needs to be controlled, with one exception - the export of introduced Hedgehogs from areas with critically endangered ground nesters.

And again.. the argument that shooting estates is a viable or acceptable way to maintain habitat is as offfensive to me as the shooting in the first place. I say again look at the Isle of Man as evidence of what unkeepered land can be like.

You haven't answered my question Jane - have you ever visited a 'keepered estate?

As for the the Isle of Man, I don't feel qualified to discuss it as I haven't been there and know little of it's history regarding wildlife in general and shooting in particular. Personally I feel there is little to be gained from discussing a subject I have no practical knowledge of - you obviously feel differently . . .

The Game Conservancy are currently carrying out research into the effects of magpie populations on nesting song birds - the results should be interesting.

BTW, I'm assuming you do know that Larsen traps are used on some RSPB reserves to catch magpies - so apparently they don't share your idea that no native species need to be controlled. I've also been asked to control both foxes and rabbits (can we count the rabbit as a native species?) on land owned by several conservation organisations - including the RSPB.

saluki

 

[mountain man]

The Game Conservancy are currently carrying out research into the effects of magpie populations on nesting song birds - the results should be interesting.

Oh Magpies are responsible for it are they?

Strange, I thought pesticide use and intensive modern agricultural methods as well as continual habitat loss were responsible.

And as for "Game Conservancy." What is the point, someone please tell me, in going to all those lengths to conserve something just to kill it? At least they could be a bit more honest. How about

"Game Killers"

or

"Victorian Principled Eccentrics That Love Killing Stuff"

After all, that is the truth.

And before you ask me, yes I have visited a keepered estate and very nice it was too. Infact I know a loony eccentric Lord and have stayed at his gaff at Houghton Hall in Norfolk. Nice breakfast, but it was a shame about all the killing though.

Tom.

 

[Anthony Morton]

QUOTE=Jane Turner

I can't see any ANY reason why the population of any native species needs to be controlled, with one exception - the export of introduced Hedgehogs from areas with critically endangered ground nesters.

Jane,

According to the article 'Not Strictly For The Birds' in the October 1996 edition of The Field, when the RSPB took over its Abernethy Reserve it 'controlled' (that's a polite way of saying 'killed') foxes, deer, crows, stoats and weasels. It also declared 'total war' on mink and feral cats, as well as killing gulls which, it was alleged, were driving other birds off nesting sites.

And when the interviewer put this to Mike Everett, the RSPB's press officer, he is quoted as saying; "We said till we were blue in the face that it was NOT because they were predators, but because they were competitors for space." When asked if this might not be just a fine philosophical distinction in the case of the gulls, Mr Everett said; "Where do you draw the line at playing God." Where indeed!

Can we assume, therefore, that you were just as vehement in your outright condemnation of the RSPB's actions then as you appear to be of gamekeepers now? And would it be any easier for you to accept the gamekeepers actions if they also hid behind the convenient phrase that any culling they undertake is necessary because the predator concerned was seen as a 'competitor for space' - just as the RSPB did then and, for all we know, are still doing now?

 

[Jane Turner]

You haven't answered my question Jane - have you ever visited a 'keepered estate?

As for the the Isle of Man, I don't feel qualified to discuss it as I haven't been there and know little of it's history regarding wildlife in general and shooting in particular.
saluki

Only as a hunt sab!

Man has no grouse shooting.... and coincidentally has the healthiest native moorland I have ever seen. What is the current population of Hen Harrier there compare to English (comparable latitude eg Lakeland and Pennine grouse moors)?

Pretty sure its more than 40 pairs in a smaller tiny area in comaprison to the Pennines/Lakeland/Bowland etc where I believe HH is officially extinct.

 

[saluki]

"Only as a hunt sab"

Ah! Why does that not surprise me . . . so basically I'm discussing this with someone who has no practical knowledge of the subject whatsoever - but who has a substantial axe to grind - and is getting her information about shooting estates from books, the internet or conversations with other like-minded people. Why do I bother . . .

"Man has no grouse shooting.... and coincidentally has the healthiest native moorland I have ever seen. What is the current population of Hen Harrier there compare to English (comparable latitude eg Lakeland and Pennine grouse moors)?

Pretty sure its more than 40 pairs in a smaller tiny area in comaprison to the Pennines/Lakeland/Bowland etc where I believe HH is officially extinct".

This proves nothing in the context of our discussion, apart from the fact that 'keepers kill Hen Harriers - which is a fact I'm not disputing. If the I of Man was managed in a responsible manner for grouse shooting (ie. HHs weren't killed) do you think that the population would diminish? A well-managed grouse moor consists of a patchwork of heather of different ages. Old, long heather is ideal for nesting HH, newer, short heather ideal for hunting.

saluki

 

[Steve G]

Sadly the British landscape is a sick broken-down degraded system with an impoverished flora & fauna. Enhancing & preserving our enviroment now requires & is dependent on man's intervention. The form & nature of that intervention is dictated by your point of view.
If you view the countryside as a sporting playground you manage it for field sports with your priority being to maximise on game species production & if that helps a few pretty songbirds then good & well (-could even be used as "spin" to promote your activities). I'm sure many sportsmen appreciate being serenaded by Song Thrush & Robin whilst they creep through the undergrowth attempting to blow the seven shades of sh*t out of an unsuspecting handreared semi-tame pet Pheasant which has to be kicked into the air before it can be shot!
Those of us who wish to see restoration of a fully functioning ecosytem for its own sake are perhaps deluding ourselves. In the modern world our "wilderness" is a commodity. As things stand it has to earn its own keep (I wish it wasn't that way!!). If we wish for an enriched biodiverse British countryside we will have to canvas considerable support from the Great British public & then dip our hands in our pockets & pay for the development & upkeep of such land. Only when the "pro-biodiversity" camp has the financial clout & political lobby of the "pro-fieldsport" camp can we start to make big differences.
Currently there are a rash of "sporting syndicates" comprising of ordinary individuals who club together to finance their sporting interest by providing the funds for land rental, Game-bird rearing & "keepering". As birders we expect to be able to freely access this land though we criticise the others that finance & use it. We are not however willing to finance land use directly ourselves & many of us hold the belief that birding should be free & certainly not pay as you view. It would be great if bird clubs started to look at land lease projects where local habitat improvement projects could be funded by the bird club members in the same way as shooting syndicates. Sadly this is unlikely as many birders prefer to spend their hard-earned cash on better optics or travelling to see rarities. Besides these days when birders get together we can't seem to reach agreement on anything.

 

[Jane Turner]

"Only as a hunt sab"

Ah! Why does that not surprise me . . . so basically I'm discussing this with someone who has no practical knowledge of the subject whatsoever - but who has a substantial axe to grind - and is getting her information about shooting estates from books, the internet or conversations with other like-minded people. Why do I bother . . .

Actually sir I am a trained ecologist. I hold a PhD, but so what, that clearly means nothing to you. Yes I am ideologically opposed to the concept of killing anything for fun. I accept that currently (and I dearly wish it wasn't .... fingers crossed it won't be long) legal to kill some birds and other animals, but that doesn't mean it isn't morally reprehensible. What really gets my goat, so to speak, is people like yourself making weak pseudo-conservationalist supporting arguments for culling, shooting etc. Its like arguing the only reason that Badgers were present in the British countryside is because the were protected for baiting...otters for hunting etc. If you just admitted that shooting fraternity enjoyed shooting because its fun I could at least respect your argument, even though personally I find it repugnant.

"
This proves nothing in the context of our discussion, apart from the fact that 'keepers kill Hen Harriers - which is a fact I'm not disputing. If the I of Man was managed in a responsible manner for grouse shooting (ie. HHs weren't killed) do you think that the population would diminish? A well-managed grouse moor consists of a patchwork of heather of different ages. Old, long heather is ideal for nesting HH, newer, short heather ideal for hunting.

saluki

I'm certain that managing the IOM moorland worse overall for biodiversity yes! I suspect there would be more Grouse, but that would be to detriment of everything else. It was so wonderful to see a full gamut of moorland species, the health of which is shown by the highest ddesnity of HH, Merlin and Peregrine in the UK.

 

[mountain man]

...whilst they creep through the undergrowth attempting to blow the seven shades of sh*t out of an unsuspecting handreared semi-tame pet Pheasant which has to be kicked into the air before it can be shot!

Well said.

... Only when the "pro-biodiversity" camp has the financial clout & political lobby of the "pro-fieldsport" camp can we start to make big differences.

Come on that day. Fight the Power!

...We are not however willing to finance land use directly ourselves & many of us hold the belief that birding should be free & certainly not pay as you view.

Why should we? It should be free. We pay tax and part of that money goes (or should go) to maintaining our landscape.

...It would be great if bird clubs started to look at land lease projects where local habitat improvement projects could be funded by the bird club members in the same way as shooting syndicates.

No way. Elitism.

...Sadly this is unlikely as many birders prefer to spend their hard-earned cash on better optics or travelling to see rarities.

And why not? If our taxes were spent more wisely instead of on f***ing giant canvas tents in London then we could do what we please with our hard earned cash.

Simple solution:

Sack off landowners. Introduce legislation to make sure that green field sites remain just that. Advise people to stop having so many damn kids to ease housing shortages. Rejuvinate desolate housing areas that already exist. Ban pesticides. Ban sport hunting - you can only kill what you will later eat. Slowly switch back to more small scale farming methods. Get down your local markets and boycott the supermarket monopoly.

Rise up and rush the Winter Palace. Mutiny on the Battleship Potemkin. We shall not rest until Che Guevara's face is on a flag above Westminster.

Fight the Power!!!

Oh yeah and we'll send the Saluki's of the world to the Gulags!

 

[CDK]

Only as a hunt sab!.

I do not like hunting with hounds, but I do shoot deer, and I justify it as the need to control numbers, I do not go out and shoot negligently. I also birdwatch and can keep both interests completely seperate. However as for hunt sabs, well how can they go on about animal welfare, when I know of 2 friends who have lost horses as a result of hunt sabs, and their exploits.

Why can't we leave it as a topic, where there will always be a difference of opinion, both sides will put their case, and both will have certain merits.

 

[mountain man]

but I do shoot deer, and I justify it as the need to control numbers.

Gulag for you as well.

I can't believe some people are still so stupid.