Ignorant Game Keepers (1 Viewer)

[gamekeeper]

Hi gamekeeper and welcome to Bird Forum from all the Moderators and Admin.Staff.

Thanks Chris

 

[saluki]

I have to say it does surprise me that the pro-hunting lobby come onto a wild bird forum and expect to get sympathy.

I'm sure they only do it to annoy.

Eh! Since when did birders have a monopoly on being interested in birds? I thought the purpose of BirdForums was to share information about birds, not make judgements on other people's morality. No one expects 'sympathy', just a fair hearing. You have no more, or less, right to post on BirdForums than I do.

saluki

 

[saluki]

Maintaining habitat is a conservation measure... but that is if it for ALL species of flora fauna not just the ones that misguided people enjoy blowing away.

So 'keepers actively encourage Grey Partridge, but discourage Corn Buntings and Linnets? What a strange idea. What difference does it make why the habitat is maintained, so long as it IS maintained. If a number of Partridge are harvested each year, as long as populations are maintained, what difference does it make? (apart from the question of the morality of killing for sport, which has nothing to do with a forum dedicated to birdwatching - if you want to discuss this issue then there are plenty of animal rights forums you could try). Conservationists often work to create habitat ideal for one specific species, but that doesn't mean it doesn't benefit many other species.

saluki

 

[Michael Frankis]

So 'keepers actively encourage Grey Partridge, but discourage Corn Buntings and Linnets? What a strange idea.

No, but far too many do very actively and strongly 'discourage' (for which read, attempt to completely eradicate) Hen Harriers, Goshawks and Peregrine Falcons

Yes, there are some good gamekeepers who do also encourage and protect these birds, but far too many who don't.

Michael

 

[The Tom]

Falconry

What is the Forums thoughts on hunting with Hawks and should it be as with all bloodsports banned in our modern society

 

[birdman]

Are Falconry and Hunting with Hawks necessarily the same thing?

I don't know if you've had the official welcome yet "The Tom", so on behalf of all the Staff and Moderators, let me do it here.

WELCOME!

As for the Forum's view, well I am sure you will find it's membership has many and varied views, and the Forum itself (through it's staff) tries to be consistent in the treatment of all it's members.

 

[The Tom]

Dear Birdman Many thanks for your warm welcome it is much appreciated .Falconry as described in most dictionaries or encyclopedia is seen as a noun meaning the art or sport of hunting birds or animals with Falcons or Hawks . I know that Falconers will say that they do not train Hawks to kill and niether should they and if this is the case then a ban on hunting to kill would be welcomed by all .However I believe that Falconers are allowed to take so many birds per year .I would be obliged for any information on this .

 

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Tom,

Welcome to BirdForum!

I think what most birders dislike most about falconry is (1) that some irresponsible falconers steal Peregrines and other raptors from the wild (highly illegal, but it still happens), and (2) escaped falconers' birds, particularly hybrids, causing a nuisance for other wild raptors, and an identification headache for birders.

Unlikely that many birders worry about falconer's birds catching other birds, generally they only take legal game species like pigeons, or species listed as pests such as crows. If they allowed their birds to take rare species, then yes there would be more concern.

Michael

 

[saluki]

Hi Tom,

Welcome to BirdForum!

I think what most birders dislike most about falconry is (1) that some irresponsible falconers steal Peregrines and other raptors from the wild (highly illegal, but it still happens), and (2) escaped falconers' birds, particularly hybrids, causing a nuisance for other wild raptors, and an identification headache for birders.

Unlikely that many birders worry about falconer's birds catching other birds, generally they only take legal game species like pigeons, or species listed as pests such as crows. If they allowed their birds to take rare species, then yes there would be more concern.

Michael

It's not at all common for falconers to steal eyases these days to be honest Michael - certainly not for flying in the UK. DNA testing can be done randomly on any bird at any time, so, with the price of birds being very low these days, it's simply not worth the risk. I have heard a few reports of eggs or very young eyases being stolen for, supposedly, the Middle East, but some of the prices quoted by birders (I heard that a Scottish Peregrine was worth over £18,000 on another forum not long ago) probably have the effect of encouraging some unscrupulous people to try their hand. The traditional quarry for Arabs is the houbara, to which Sakers and Gyrs are probably more suited. Besides which, many Euopean hawk-breeding establishments (and some are huge) have their own lines of Scottish peregrine - it was amazing how many falcons were shipped out of Britain just before DNA testing came in!

As for the escaped bird issue, it shouldn't really be a problem if the bird is native to the UK (although many captive Peregrines may be a mixture of several different races) or even a vagrant such as Gyrs (there is some evidence - albeit only heresay - that escaped Gyrs do in fact move north) shouldn't cause a problem. Hybrids, however, I agree, may pose different problems. There is some evidence from the US that hybrids are breeding with native species, such as peregrines - though many hybrids are naturally infertile. Maybe the answer would be if only native breeds of raptors were allowed to be flown in the UK.

BTW Michael, few falconers want to fly their falcons at pigeons (and I am talking falcons now, as opposed to those who fly H. Hawks around buildings, etc.) as pigeons tend to take them a long way and you lose your bird - unfortunately, the falcon doesn't always see things that way! The traditional quarry of falconers would be partridge, grouse, mallard, teal and rooks (they provide a different kind of flight altogether than gamebirds and ducks, called a 'ringing' flight) for instance.

As for Tom's concerns about killing for 'pleasure' so to speak - again I wonder whether such arguments belong on a forum such as this? It is such a complex issue, it might be better discussed on an animal rights forum. We are all - even vegans - probably responsible for the deaths of animals somewhere down the line (unless one is entirely self-sufficient). We all (unless we don't eat, or don't enjoy eating!), therefore, get some pleasure out of the death of an animal.

saluki

 

[ivewalmer]

Not entirely sure it is correct (if indeed that is what is meant) that RSPB don't control foxes by shooting. I'm sure I read that they used to (and not in the distant past) shoot foxes venturing onto the scrape at Minsmere. Anyway I stand to be "shot down" on this - and you'll find I am an ample target! I know there are some dreadful shooting estates out there but I don't believe they are all the same and that many of them don't make a big contribution to conservation. Yes I also would rather this wasn't a by product of blasting away at pheasants etc but that's life in the real world isn't it?
On a similar vein - what state would our rivers and canals be in if it wasn't for the work fishing clubs do?

 

[Anthony Morton]

Not entirely sure it is correct (if indeed that is what is meant) that RSPB don't control foxes by shooting. I'm sure I read that they used to (and not in the distant past) shoot foxes venturing onto the scrape at Minsmere. Anyway I stand to be "shot down" on this - and you'll find I am an ample target!

As part of Posting #53 earlier in this thread I commented on a point made by BirdForum's 'First Lady' as follows:-

'According to the article 'Not Strictly For The Birds' in the October 1996 edition of The Field, when the RSPB took over its Abernethy Reserve it 'controlled' (that's a polite way of saying 'killed') foxes, deer, crows, stoats and weasels. It also declared 'total war' on mink and feral cats, as well as killing gulls which, it was alleged, were driving other birds off nesting sites.

And when the interviewer put this to Mike Everett, the RSPB's officer, he is quoted as saying; "We said till we were blue in the face that it was NOT because they were predators, but because they were competitors for space." When asked if this might not be just a fine philosophical distinction in the case of the gulls, Mr Everett said; "Where do you draw the line at playing God." Where indeed!'

This has so far remained unchallenged but, if true, isn't it a clear case of double standards by the RSPB along the lines of 'Don't do what I do, do what I say'? After all, surely what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - or is it?

 

[nirofo]

Hi Anthony

The RSPB has a long history of double standards.

nirofo.

 

[Richard K-M]

How can ANYONE enjoy killing just for pleasure?

From personal experience, the keepering of estates (my knowledge is of grouse moors) is simply to let monied people shoot at birds that are being driven over them. Other than being able to shoot straight, there is no skill involved from the shooters, no field craft is required, they are even carried to the shooting butts in 4x4s. Why don't they simply shoot clays instead?

As part of my job at one time, I worked on the moors in the Peak District. Ignorance and myth were rife amongst many workers and predators were falsely persecuted as a result.

I think one of the most satisfying moments I have ever had was during a live badger broadcast from the BBC when a gamekeeper and Dr ?Steve Harris from Bristol University were sat in a hide together. The gamekeeper was coming out with the usual rubbish about badgers which was quickly refuted by Dr Harris who had been studying the behaviour of badgers for years.

 

[Jane Turner]

How can ANYONE enjoy killing just for pleasure?

Beats me too! In a demonstration of the degree of "skill" involved, I did once hit (gently) a flying Red Grouse with a snow ball!

 

[derekjake]

Beats me too! In a demonstration of the degree of "skill" involved, I did once hit (gently) a flying Red Grouse with a snow ball!

jane your something else , you will be telling us next you also got a left and right with two snow balls thrown at the same time

 

[Jane Turner]

jane your something else , you will be telling us next you also got a left and right with two snow balls thrown at the same time

I stopped at one, feeling that the point had been adequately made.

 

[DSpeight]

Gamekeepers really do come in for a lot of stick, and if some of them are pushing for a cull on Buzzard numbers, quite rightly so.
In the defence of some of them though I have to say that without the restriction of public access into pheasant rearing woods in South West Lancashire and Merseyside, as well as the relaxed attitude of allowing them to breed unmolested within these woods, we would probably not have the pleasure of seeing them rapidly expand as they have in tis part of the country.
Mature woodland really is at a premium here, and without game rearing we would probably have almost nothing left.
The land that I do most of my birding on is arable farmland which is heavily shot on. Despite this birds of prey seem to be doing pretty well. The landowner even encourages the increase of Barn Owls by leaving a 6 metre margin to fields in which they can hunt. So credit where credits due.
To balance this though I am well aware of the attitudes of others. There is an article this month in 'Birdwatch' magazine which clearly outlines the degree to which many gamekeepers still persecute raptors.

Mal

I live in the Peak District of Derbyshire where the incident Mal refers to took place. Particularly galling that the nest destruction took place in an area where a lot of voluntary and professional work had taken place to encourage the establishment of Goshawk.

That said, other keepers have a far more enlightened attitude. My "local patch" covers the Chatsworth and Haddon estates, both of which are heavily shot, but the work of the keepers encourages song birds and there is no persecution of raptors. I have seen as many as 5 Buzzards in the air at once, which is pretty good for an area that is on the edge of the Buzzard's UK range!

 

[The Tom]

Beats me too! In a demonstration of the degree of "skill" involved, I did once hit (gently) a flying Red Grouse with a snow ball!

Jane the ammount of snow we have in our neck of the woods would probably only make one snowball but next time it snows try lobbing a few at the shooters , but that wouldn,t be fair poor dears

 

[Gordon]

While I am no fan of the shooting fraternity I do accept that sometimes some good can come from their activities. I agree to a large extent with sentiments previously expressed - ie, how do these people get pleasure from killing. At the time of the fox hunting debate opponents were accused of indulging in class warfare - so be it. I think that historically it is the "lower orders" who have been forced to give up their "pleasures" such a cock fighting, bear baiting, etc whilst the upper classes have retained a hold on their killing/cruelty activities.

Anyway, whilst, as you can tell, I am in principle generally opposed to such activities (having in the past been threatened at shotgun point by gamekeepers for walking along a public right of way but close pheasant pens) I do not believe that all persons involved in hunting and shooting are bad people. Therefore I think everybody should follow this link to a story in today's Herald(Glasgow) http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/15019.html where they will find a story (which if it is all true) about an estate manager who is a shining example not just to other managers/gamekeeper but to people in general. He seems like he's living in the wrong era - ie, that of "spinning" politicians, cynical businesses and "I'm alright jack"

Gordon

 

[gamekeeper]

Not entirely sure it is correct (if indeed that is what is meant) that RSPB don't control foxes by shooting.

It certainly IS true! The RSPB shoot foxes on Abernethy reserve in Speyside. They did stop for a while but realised, when their bird numbers crashed, it was very short sighted. The RSPB just don't like the public knowing they kill things incase the little old lady in the town decides not to leave them a large legacy.

The RSPB were also instrumental (and here I praise them) for getting SNH up off its backside and doing something about the hedgehogs on Uist - trouble is SNH are so useless their hedgehog cull is a bit like painting the forth rd bridge!