Illegal hunting in Lebanon (3 Viewers)

[Jos Stratford]

Anyway, in Iceland they consider rotten fish a delicacy... If that's not backwards i don't know what is...

And in others the men run around in skirts, have ginger beards and indulge in extreme cruelty to free-range haggis, truly backward. A good point on which to really leave the discussion and go to bed

 

[turkish van]

And in others the men run around in skirts, have ginger beards and indulge in extreme cruelty to free-range haggis, truly backward. A good point on which to really leave the discussion and go to bed

There is very little support for ginger beards here though...

 

[Peewit]

I have one big word for those sad photos, and talk about a lump in my throat.

SICKENING!!! :C:C:C:C:C:C

How can people get any satisfaction from killing a creature so many times smaller then themselves

more :C:C:C:C!!!!!

Regards
Kathy
x

 

[Jos Stratford]

Slaughtering animals in front of young kids, sexually assaulting women, killing wild birds, being violent to people, and extreme censorship in case we offend a charming little lamb is the cornerstone of a bright future society people.

Essex or the Middle East?

 

[skylark25]

Finally after three months since I first opened this thread, now it's about time that a discussion on the matter has been evolved and judging from all the people visiting as displayed below, the thread is attracting some interest.

Please do stick to the subject guys !! What goes on in other countries cannot be compared in any way with what's going on in Lebanon. Its pointless pointing here and there, as its gonna get us nowhere.

Also as far as I am aware, no where in the US or Europe do such atrocities take place. Yeah sure, illegal hunting exists everywhere, but definetly not to such an extent as the above situation. Also illegal hunting is being addressed and enforcement and conservation efforts are always being implemented. None of this is currently happening there I think. The fact that the poachers themselves openly upload photos of illegally shot birds on Facebook, already speaks enough that they're not gonna get in trouble whatsoever!

I wouldn't call these hunters 'cave-men'' or ''backward''. Judging from all the photos they uplaod daily, they have access to computers and internet, they own cameras to take their pics and they use modern equipment when hunting too and spend big money in order to buy guns and ammunition. So they aren't exactly 'poor' people. Also some of the hunters themselves, have modern jobs such as office men and studied well. Some speak more than 4 languages...its just that they are simply crazy and obsessed with shooting anything that moves.

 

[lashinala]

I have one big word for those sad photos, and talk about a lump in my throat.

SICKENING!!! :C:C:C:C:C:C

How can people get any satisfaction from killing a creature so many times smaller then themselves

more :C:C:C:C!!!!!

Regards
Kathy
x

People who kill whales many times larger than themselves are just as bad, eh?
"The world is a vampire...."
There's no easy solution here. However, I'd say that posting pics to make people aware of a problem/situation is a good thing. Posting pics to make people angry/upset so that a certain political stance is forwarded is not.
I'll leave it up to each to decide which they are doing.

 

[Peewit]

People who kill whales many times larger than themselves are just as bad, eh?
"The world is a vampire...."
There's no easy solution here. However, I'd say that posting pics to make people aware of a problem/situation is a good thing. Posting pics to make people angry/upset so that a certain political stance is forwarded is not.
I'll leave it up to each to decide which they are doing.

I have never seen anything so graphic before, and I say thumbs up :t: to Skylark for drawing this issue to our attention.

Regards
Kathy
x

 

[Jos Stratford]

Posting pics to make people angry/upset so that a certain political stance is forwarded is not.

Might I assume this refers to the posting of the American photographs.

Well sorry, this thread and the reaction of moderators is a pretty poor show. That posters are repeatedly denigrating entire nations and that the moderators are doing nothing is, in my humble opinion, disgusting. Sometime time back, very mild criticism of the U.S. was posted on a thread, one particular moderator immediately knocking it down.

This is nothing to do with a political stance, it is nothing to do with censorship, it is about an international forum showing respect to the international world. Condemn the actions of the bird hunters by all means, not entire populations, most of whom are good decent people just the same as the rest of us.

Nothing more to say on this thread, I hope, I will let the intellect and understanding of Owl Capone carry on as he desires.

 

[lashinala]

Unfortunately, I've seen much worse than this...and not just birds.
And yes, skylark25, good work. If you are doing this at 15, imagine what you can do at 30, 45, etc. I think a lot of countries that are now experiencing a lack of environmental enforcement are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Owl Capone]

Well sorry, this thread and the reaction of moderators is a pretty poor show

Jos Stratford has a profile picture with a cat holding a gun, which I find pretty damn offensive on a birdforum, when cats and hunting are both having negative impacts on our native birdlife, so can the moderators please have it removed

 

[skylark25]

People who kill whales many times larger than themselves are just as bad, eh?
I'd say that posting pics to make people aware of a problem/situation is a good thing.

Yes that is indeed my aim and thanks for the support. But the way people react in seeing these pics is obviously beyond my control. Lashinala, I've never seen photos worse then these on the net, when talking about birds. Mind you, there are plenty of other disturbing pics of other animals that are killed there...I can uplaod them up too if you wish :-C

I think a lot of countries that are now experiencing a lack of environmental enforcement are in for a rude awakening.

I hope you are right, but I'm fear we are already too late. It will take decades to wipe out illegal hunting from countries such as Lebanon, and who knows what would have happened to our bird populations by then. Lebanese kids already learn how to shoot and kill when they are still boys and pick up guns at such a young age. On the contrary when I was 9, I picked up for the first time a pair of binoculars and discovered a new world full of birds . Ironic isn't it?

and I say thumbs up :t: to Skylark for drawing this issue to our attention.

Thanks Peewit

 

[Owl Capone]

We need to toughen up on countries that turn a blind eye to this before its too late, another 20 years of that scale of massacre and there will be nothing left. We have tried softly softly and it doesnt work. We should start imposing sanctions and cutting aid if the governments dont meet required targets. They will soon get a grip on the situation when the cash pot starts dwindling. Why do you need education not to kill something, Im sure not every bird dies outright and some are visibly in pain and distress, it is inhumane and backward. Animals are not even killed humanely for food in certain places, and its fun to kill something. Its not like the old days, these guys have access to TV and media, they fully well know its wrong

Well done Skylark for highlighting the scale of the problem

 

[tomjenner]

...they fully well know its wrong

I very much doubt this is the case. Just because animal welfare and conservation are big issues right now in the west doesn't mean that other parts of the world are even aware of it. Its nothing to do with being barbaric, but simply that there is need for education on these matters. Another movement in the west is for racial and religious tolerance, yet there seems to be little of that shown in the discussion on this thread.
It is good that a thread like this highlights such an important conservation issue as indiscriminate hunting, but it is vital that we go about dealing with it in a way that is going to gain support from the countries involved. The tone of some of the discussion here is not likely to help the cause.

Tom

 

[Owl Capone]

I very much doubt this is the case. Just because animal welfare and conservation are big issues right now in the west doesn't mean that other parts of the world are even aware of it. Its nothing to do with being barbaric, but simply that there is need for education on these matters. Another movement in the west is for racial and religious tolerance, yet there seems to be little of that shown in the discussion on this thread.
It is good that a thread like this highlights such an important conservation issue as indiscriminate hunting, but it is vital that we go about dealing with it in a way that is going to gain support from the countries involved. The tone of some of the discussion here is not likely to help the cause.

Please tell me how you tolerate a belief that allows inhumane killing of animals? Do people in the west accept throat cutting into humane society and go backwards? or do people completely change their belief system? or are these simply incompatible?

If killing endangered wildlife isnt shown on TV as being wrong, why not? Its 2011. Tolerance should be two-way after all. The west is showing many steps and sacrifices to move towards tolerance, what strides are countries in the region making to become tolerant towards the West?

 

[lashinala]

Please tell me how you tolerate a belief that allows inhumane killing of animals? Do people in the west accept throat cutting into humane society and go backwards? or do people completely change their belief system? or are these simply imcompatible?

If killing endangered wildlife isnt shown on TV as being wrong, why not? Its 2011. Tolerance should be two-way after all. The west is showing many steps and sacrifices to move towards tolerance, what strides are countries in the region making to become tolerant towards the West, and other peoples?

There is a double standard going on here, that's almost unmentioned. The 'inhumane killing of animals' is often done by animals themselves. Ever see a wolfpack take down an elk? A sparrowhawk take a sparrow? It's beyond 'inhumane', but it's how nature works. It predates our morals by millions of years. The only thing crueler than this act is the elimination of the wolf (or sparrowhawk) itself from the ecosystem. I can hesitantly accept inhumane killing of animals if it guarantees the continuation of the animals somewhere else. What happens if we 'educated' westerners are slowly educated that the world is actually by default a cruel and tough place to exist in, and that our morals/memes/preconceptions don't transfer to other species....even to other cultures? Do we force our morals on them, or do we let them reach the same conclusion we reached through trial and error? I.e. It's not the fact that they are shooting them that bothers me as much as how many are shot. Much like fishermen here, people are lazy...we don't 'bother' cleaning the small fish and they don't 'bother' with many of the 'undesirable' birds...they don't all go to the pot. Do we want to teach them that 'hunting is wrong' (good luck with that), or do we want to teach them temperance and discretion (may not work either)? The hunters are just people that are taking what they see as an unlimited resource, a lot like Americans did with Passenger pigeons and bison, the education needs to be that taking 'more than your share' of a limited resource is wrong, regardless of the culture or resource. That's just forethought.
:t:

Yeah, we Americans can use that lesson too.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Please tell me how you tolerate a belief that allows inhumane killing of animals? Do people in the west accept throat cutting into humane society and go backwards? or do people completely change their belief system? or are these simply imcompatible?

You are hung up on the image of chickens getting their throat cut in front of children, thereby labelling the countries barbaric.

And Europe is so much more humane? Yes our children are insulated, the meat and eggs becoming cheap products that reside on supermarket shelves. But what of the practises that lead to the cheap products on the shelf - factory farms, transport of livestock over great distances to abbatoirs that still leave something to be desired, I don't classify that as more humane than a chicken that led much of its life freerange. E.U. law states that individual chickens must have 550 cm2 of living space, less than a single sheet of A4 paper. Conditions for pigs, etc, equally poor. Yes, what a wonderful life some of our European farm animals live.

E.U. countries routinely pack live animals for transport to slaughter elsewhere on the continent, journeys often exceeding 30 hours, sometimes twice that. Very humane I am sure. Factory farmed till transport, one traumatic journey, then slaughter.

All permitted by the laws of the civilised E.U, etc.

So the practice that so rattles you, that leads you to label the countries barbaric, backwards, etc, I would say are no worse that many of the practises occurring in most of the countires we live.

 

[Jos Stratford]

...or do we want to teach them temperance and discretion (may not work either)?

Incidently, this approach is being conducted in Lebanon - there are organisations that are working to educate children and adults to appreciate raptors and other species, focussing their limited resourses on areas near protected areas in the country.

 

[ceasar]

There is a double standard going on here, that's almost unmentioned. The 'inhumane killing of animals' is often done by animals themselves. Ever see a wolfpack take down an elk? A sparrowhawk take a sparrow? It's beyond 'inhumane', but it's how nature works. It predates our morals by millions of years. The only thing crueler than this act is the elimination of the wolf (or sparrowhawk) itself from the ecosystem. I can hesitantly accept inhumane killing of animals if it guarantees the continuation of the animals somewhere else. What happens if we 'educated' westerners are slowly educated that the world is actually by default a cruel and tough place to exist in, and that our morals/memes/preconceptions don't transfer to other species....even to other cultures? Do we force our morals on them, or do we let them reach the same conclusion we reached through trial and error? I.e. It's not the fact that they are shooting them that bothers me as much as how many are shot. Much like fishermen here, people are lazy...we don't 'bother' cleaning the small fish and they don't 'bother' with many of the 'undesirable' birds...they don't all go to the pot. Do we want to teach them that 'hunting is wrong' (good luck with that), or do we want to teach them temperance and discretion (may not work either)? The hunters are just people that are taking what they see as an unlimited resource, a lot like Americans did with Passenger pigeons and bison, the education needs to be that taking 'more than your share' of a limited resource is wrong, regardless of the culture or resource. That's just forethought.
:t:

Yeah, we Americans can use that lesson too.

The Passenger Pigeon died out largely because of loss of habitat caused by the westward expansion of the population of the United States. This also affected the American Bison as it was killed for food for workers on the railroads being built across America at that time. Ulysses S. Grant, in his Autobiography, writes about seeing herds of them in Texas "as far as the eye could see" during his time with General Scott in the War with Mexico. The American Indians, previously, also used to slaughter far more than they needed for their purposes by stampeding them over cliffs.

In fact, one could argue that it was progress that caused most of these die outs. Some species, like Red-tailed Hawks, have thrived on the expansion and industrialization of America. Others have been unable to adapt.

In the east there was a species of Bison known as the Wood Buffalo that had large herds in Pennsylvania and New York. In winter they would break into where the Hay was stored for the farmer's cattle and eat and destroy the winter feed for the cattle. This was the reason they were killed off, and it was done by farmer's, not hunters. There was an excellent article in "Sports Illustrated" magazine many years ago about this titled: "The Passing of the Wood Buffalo."

Many of the declines of species; like the American Chestnut, which at one time amounted to 75% of all the trees in the central Appalachian region, came from diseases that originated in Europe. It's demise damaged the economy of this region to the point that it has really never recovered from it: industries were built around it. The American Elm Tree also now suffers from a disease that originated in Europe. The Black-tailed Prairie Dog was hurt more by a virus from the Far East than it was by indiscriminate hunting. Of course, America, has sent it's share of problems of this nature around the world too. It is becoming more and more difficult not to do so with the so called "global economy" we have now.

If you visit Hawk Mountain in September you will routinely see the Interns there emptying out their wicker baskets from the yearly infestation of a "Stink Bug" that originated in the far east. See this link:http://ento.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/brown-marmorated-stink-bug

And the Gypsy Moth, which can denude an entire forest and mountainside, was the result of an experiment gone wrong by a biologist who was trying to breed a new and stronger version of the Silk worm moth!

Bob

 

[Alan henry]

We need to toughen up on countries that turn a blind eye to this before its too late, another 20 years of that scale of massacre and there will be nothing left. We have tried softly softly and it doesnt work. We should start imposing sanctions and cutting aid if the governments dont meet required targets. They will soon get a grip on the situation when the cash pot starts dwindling. Why do you need education not to kill something, Im sure not every bird dies outright and some are visibly in pain and distress, it is inhumane and backward. Animals are not even killed humanely for food in certain places, and its fun to kill something. Its not like the old days, these guys have access to TV and media, they fully well know its wrong

Well done Skylark for highlighting the scale of the problem

Owl Capone,

Put "Dove shooting" in Google Images and you will see the extent of shooting and killing birds is a world wide problem not just the Lebanon one highlight by skylark25.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Adam W]

Owl Capone,

Put "Dove shooting" in Google Images and you will see the extent of shooting and killing birds is a world wide problem not just the Lebanon one highlight by skylark25.

Cheers

Alan

Why do you (wrongly) make the assumption that if there is shooting its automatically a problem?