Johny121
Birds
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Illegal hunting in Lebanon (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter skylark25
- Start date
ProLebHunter
Yves Ba
Guys!, we as Pro Lebanese hunters we are against all these type of hunting too. and since the government is not making any moves against this illegal hunting, we are trying through our facebook group "PRO LEBANESE HUNTERS" to educate people about what to shoot, and when, and where, and how much. always QUALITY OVER QUANTITY.
and anyone who post a photo of an illegal and protected shot bird or animal they owner of the photo is removed after telling the person who posted it why he should not hunt it.
and beleive me there is a lot of hunters who used to kill protected species, now they are not doing it anymore, and following the rules.
we are trying to apply each one by himself the european hunting rules and regulations.
like shooting quails using hunting dogs only,and with specific bag limits, shooting rabbits also day time using dogs, shooting chukar using dogs, woodcock also.....
and i totally agree with SLASH
and by the way SKYLARK, you are from malta. and you are talking about poachers and illegal hunting in lebanon, check whats happening in malta concerning that, then post about lebanon.
and anyone who post a photo of an illegal and protected shot bird or animal they owner of the photo is removed after telling the person who posted it why he should not hunt it.
and beleive me there is a lot of hunters who used to kill protected species, now they are not doing it anymore, and following the rules.
we are trying to apply each one by himself the european hunting rules and regulations.
like shooting quails using hunting dogs only,and with specific bag limits, shooting rabbits also day time using dogs, shooting chukar using dogs, woodcock also.....
and i totally agree with SLASH
and by the way SKYLARK, you are from malta. and you are talking about poachers and illegal hunting in lebanon, check whats happening in malta concerning that, then post about lebanon.
Johny121
Birds
skylark25
Well-known member
After quite a long time, Lebanese hunters have finally found this thread on birdforum....
It reflects the whole community because the majority of hunters behave this way, after all all the images above were taken proudly by lebanese hunters themselves and uploaded the photos themselves
You don't need to invite anyone because lebanese hunters took photos of the birds they illegally killed themselves and not me
Who said we shut our eyes on our mistakes, two wrongs don't make a right and I can assure you that I've never seen anywhere worse then Lebanon. Stop comparing with other countries to try to hide your dirty linen or make yours seem 'ok' since everyone else breaks laws
200,000 hunters in a country of 4 million is a lot Slash !! Also you should take into consideration that Lebanon is part of the main migratory flyway and bags are very high, so you are killing more birds and doing more damage then anywhere else
I agree, don't take it against us because we are only trying to create awareness about this serious problem. i repeat I have never seen cases of worse illegal hunting as in your country, please act before its too late....also you say that you are against the killing of raptors and pelicans, what is your view on the shooting of chaffinches, warblers, golden orioles, barn swallows and bee-eaters, all species that are shot and killed in Lebanon by the thousands....these are all PROTECTED birds throughout Europe. Are you against their killing too?
It reflects the whole community because the majority of hunters behave this way, after all all the images above were taken proudly by lebanese hunters themselves and uploaded the photos themselves
You don't need to invite anyone because lebanese hunters took photos of the birds they illegally killed themselves and not me
Who said we shut our eyes on our mistakes, two wrongs don't make a right and I can assure you that I've never seen anywhere worse then Lebanon. Stop comparing with other countries to try to hide your dirty linen or make yours seem 'ok' since everyone else breaks laws
200,000 hunters in a country of 4 million is a lot Slash !! Also you should take into consideration that Lebanon is part of the main migratory flyway and bags are very high, so you are killing more birds and doing more damage then anywhere else
I agree, don't take it against us because we are only trying to create awareness about this serious problem. i repeat I have never seen cases of worse illegal hunting as in your country, please act before its too late....also you say that you are against the killing of raptors and pelicans, what is your view on the shooting of chaffinches, warblers, golden orioles, barn swallows and bee-eaters, all species that are shot and killed in Lebanon by the thousands....these are all PROTECTED birds throughout Europe. Are you against their killing too?
skylark25
Well-known member
Welcome to the forum Pro Lebanese hunter, since you said that you are against all of these types of hunting too, are you also against the hunting of small songbirds such as: Chaffinches, Warblers, Golden orioles, Barn Swallows, Sparrows, Bee-eaters and Wheatears? We have posted photos of the indiscriminate killing of thousands of these birds here too. The killing of these species is illegal. I checked your page and there are loads of photos of these shot birds in your bags. What is your view on this? Are you aware that his is illegal too?
Quantity over Quality? Are you sure you really mean that? Judging from all the pics on your facebook page uploaded by your members, its quite the contrary !! Car bonnets covered with hundreds of dead birds, is this what you mean by Quality over Quantity? Come on
While its commendable that you take off photos of shot protected raptors uploaded on your page may I let you know that all the above photos were taken from your Facebook pages, some of them are still on display till today, so I doubt that most hunters share your same view, and protected birds shot at is still the order of the day and most hunters support this illegal behaviour. Photos of bagged finches, sparrows, golden orioles, warblers, bee eaters and swallows are all illegal. Are you going to take off these photos too? Are you going to tell these hunters to stop shooting them too? Because the only birds that you can legally hunt are Skylark, Song Thrush, Quail, Turtle Dove and the ducks sp. all the rest are illegal and aren't even considered as fair game birds
Good to know, but judging from all the continuous stream of pics uploaded online, illegal hunting still takes it toll and many protected birds are still being killed in Lebanon irrelevant of what you claim. Its your concern and should be from your own interest that rules are obeyed and your hunting is sustainable. As things stand hunting in lebanon is anything but that
European hunting rules and regulations prohibit the hunting of small song birds such as finches sparrows, bee-eaters, swallows and all the rest. European hunting rules and regulations also prohibit the use of Logvogels and bird callers. European hunting rules and regulations also implement bird bags. in Lebanon its a free to all and everyone tries to shoot as much as they can possibly kill. Are you ready to enforce all these rules and regulations too?
Yes I know I'm from Malta and I'm proud to be Maltese. You don't need to ell me to check what goes on in my country. I actively volunteer at the local camps against illegal hunting, report all illegalities to the police, create awareness about the needs to protect and enjoy our birds and promote birdwatching. So yes I have 'checked' what goes on here locally and thats why I'm writing about what goes on in your country Lebanon, because no one knows whats going on there and everyone has the right to know about the mass killing of migratory birds that goes on in your back garden.
Also since you're mentioning illegal hunting in my country, I can assure you that no hunter in Malta goes on shooting finches and sparrows, and no hunter goes on shooting bee-eaters and golden orioles. You may find one or two idiots that do so, but they don't go on killing hundreds of them for peats sake. Anyone that breaks the law here knows that he is doing so and when they do, they very rightly know that if they get caught they are gonna have to face the consequences. Not really the case in Lebanon, enforcement in most areas is almost inexistent.
No Hunter in Malta ever bags more than 50 birds in a day (legal species) and you'll be lucky to find anyone who bags more than 200 thrushes in a whole season. Unlike Lebanon where you can bag 200 birds in just one day. Also Malta is not on the main migratory route, we are just a migratory flyway. Still equally important for migratory birds, certainly not as important as lebanon which is on the main flyway and is a bottleneck in the middle east. Malta has improved a lot along the years thanks to international backing and help,and increase in enforcement and awareness of the general public. Also the few illegal incidents here make it in the media, by the same scale of attention you should be given double that!! As things stand, a massacre of birds goes on in Lebanon and no one 's got a clue about it and it never makes the headlines anywhere. Googling ''Illegal hunting in Lebanon' will give you very few results. Try google Malta and see what come's up...Ironic isn't it?
So before you go on blabbing about my country get the facts right, and no matter how much you try to cover it up, don't worry your hunting friends have done a 'great' job in exposing the atrocities and mass killing of birds. Even posing near dead or injured birds (all protected) , and no one can unfortunately do anything to change the truth. Birds are our common heritage, so it is in all our interest that they are safeguarded, irrelevant what country you're from. Birds don't belong to any country, as they defy all borders of all nations and migrate from here to there
So it would be better if you really educate hunters and promote sustainability. It would be even better if you opened your country to eco-tourism. Are you aware that there are plenty of birdwatchers and wild life enthusiasts that would be ready to pay big money to birdwatch and pump well needed money in your economy? Are you aware that the illegal and unsustainable hunting in the middle east is leaving an effect on our european birds? Of course illegalities exist everywhere, but its not an excuse not to act. Some countries have small problems, others big and a few others have even bigger problems, and Lebanon is one of them
Waiting for your reply,
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Irish Kite
Well-known member
I agree with most of what you just posted Skylark but I think its a positive start on a long road when at least some Lebanese hunters realise whats going on in their country is unacceptable and seek ways to improve a bad situation.
ProLebHunter
Yves Ba
skylark, hahahaha, sure i meant Quality over Quantity, sorry my mistake.
concerning the chaffinch and the other birds you mentioned. they were not mentioned in the illegal birds list on the hunting license since last time , there was a hunting law in lebanon. (15 years ago) so people are still hunting those birds because they don't know they are protected somewhere else. they know that Barn swallow should not be shot and it's illegal, but they dont know about the other birds. that's why i invited you to the group. so if you see a photo that we don't know it contains protected species, you can comment and tell us. and next time it will be forbidden to post or shoot this birds. though the majority on the page don't shoot these birds, as i said before, we are more after game birds, chukar,woodcock,thrushs, quails, doves....even we are avoiding skylarks and quails sometimes, because we think it's not a challenge to shoot.
we are after hard to find birds. we do it as a sport.not just to kill.
and i'm not saying that you have illegal bird hunters in your country to hide ours. i just meant that everywhere there is illegal hunting not just lebanon. and hopefully in 2012 hunting in lebanon will be organized.that's what they are saying.
and i have one more thing to say: we can't fix what was done wrong for ages and for many many years ago, in just few years, we have to start from somewhere, so excuse us if you still see protected species being hunted, at least we started from somewhere. and one of the main concerns is shooting thrushs at night,it's a huge problem we are facing and lately became a like a trend in here and we are trying our best to stop it.....and more and moreee...hopefully will all be fixed as soon as possible. after all we are just hunters and no one from the government is helping us. we are doing it all by ourselves.
concerning the chaffinch and the other birds you mentioned. they were not mentioned in the illegal birds list on the hunting license since last time , there was a hunting law in lebanon. (15 years ago) so people are still hunting those birds because they don't know they are protected somewhere else. they know that Barn swallow should not be shot and it's illegal, but they dont know about the other birds. that's why i invited you to the group. so if you see a photo that we don't know it contains protected species, you can comment and tell us. and next time it will be forbidden to post or shoot this birds. though the majority on the page don't shoot these birds, as i said before, we are more after game birds, chukar,woodcock,thrushs, quails, doves....even we are avoiding skylarks and quails sometimes, because we think it's not a challenge to shoot.
we are after hard to find birds. we do it as a sport.not just to kill.
and i'm not saying that you have illegal bird hunters in your country to hide ours. i just meant that everywhere there is illegal hunting not just lebanon. and hopefully in 2012 hunting in lebanon will be organized.that's what they are saying.
and i have one more thing to say: we can't fix what was done wrong for ages and for many many years ago, in just few years, we have to start from somewhere, so excuse us if you still see protected species being hunted, at least we started from somewhere. and one of the main concerns is shooting thrushs at night,it's a huge problem we are facing and lately became a like a trend in here and we are trying our best to stop it.....and more and moreee...hopefully will all be fixed as soon as possible. after all we are just hunters and no one from the government is helping us. we are doing it all by ourselves.
ProLebHunter
Yves Ba
Car bonnets covered with hundreds of dead birds.
as you know. not all description and comments are written in english. so maybe you are missing the part on those photos, that they are not shot by one hunter. if you see 200 birds on a car, and shot by 5 hunters. i think it's like less then 50 birds by hunter. and sometimes it's the hunt of 2 days (weekends) not at the same day.
and don't you think that bag limits are set according to the specific bird quantities in the region or country? it's not the same every season or in all the places. i see photos of european hunters with more than 100 thrush and more than 10 woodcock a day. and more than 20 partridges. and look at argentina or romania or bulguaria dove hunting. 1000 of birds shot a day.
well here we shoot maybe maximum number of 3 woodcocks a day if found. and if someone shoot more than 3 chukars a day it will be like committing a massacre.
so bag limits is complicated and studies should be made so they can be set. that's why we take the european bag limits as reference and we set ours to be less, so we can still on the safe side. like if the limit of woodcock is 30 per season in france. we try not to shoot more than 15-20 per season in here. (we as pro hunters, not poachers or guys who are just "shooters" as we call them)
Pro Lebanese Hunters
New member
Guys , Specialy Skylark 25 .. Plz join us https://www.facebook.com/groups/prolebanesehunters/
and there we will talk abt everything related to lebanon illegal hunting
and there we will talk abt everything related to lebanon illegal hunting
Hi, unfortunately this thread has been characterised by unhelpful frequently abusive comments which have rarely related to the realities on the ground, particularly so by those early on in the thread.
Comparisons with Malta are valid, a similar mindset exists amongst portions of the hunters, the battle for we conservationists broadly similar, though I fully agree a far more challenging task in the case of the Lebanon. Malta has a stable functioning government, is a member of the E.U., etc - it has no excuses. We have to concede that the Lebanese government does have other issues that may just seem a little more important, it is within this framework that we have to accept enforcement is going to be problematic for quite a while, and as the hunters themselves hint at, self regulation is probably going to be the best tool we have in the current situation, accepting it will not be the most ideal perhaps. The arrival of Lebanese hunters on this thread can only be viewed as an achievement of the thread and, if respect is shown on both sides, offers a real possibility to voice concerns and work with persons who might be able to begin to chip away at the illegal activites that occur..
We do however have to be realistic, regardless of the efforts of the Lebanese to eradicate illegal hunting, eco-tourism is not in the near future going to become hugely viable. This is partly due to the simple fact that better birding facilities exist in neighbouring countries, but moreover due to ongoing political issues in the country and region as a whole. As our Lebanese hunter has said, much of the worst of the hunting is in the far south and, I would suppose, the Bekaa Valley too (?). Given the best will in the world, tourists are not going to be piling into these areas soon.
Agreed though the potential does exist - Jordan should be highly commended for the work and progress in this respect, many nature reserves now forming part of the 'standard' tourist routes.
Guys , Specialy Skylark 25 .. Plz join us https://www.facebook.com/groups/prolebanesehunters/
and there we will talk abt everything related to lebanon illegal hunting
If members of Bird Forum take up this offer and resist the urge to merely criticise, but take it as a chance to exchange opinions and explain why many of us oppose what they are doing, then full credit do the members that do.
Anyhow, three weeks more and it's back to the Middle East for me to again enjoy some of the best birding in the Palearctic. Please remember, the images on this thread are part of the picture, not the whole picture.
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skylark25
Well-known member
Thanks for your reply,
All these birds that we've mentioned on the other previous posts are protected, chaffinch and all the rest. Whether most hunters are aware of these laws is another issue and thats why we have to create awareness. Shooting chaffinches, blackcaps, bunting and all the other small birds doesn't make any sense and aren't even game birds. I've also noticed that loads of Hoopoes are shot in Lebanon. I've noticed that a number of hunters posted telling other hunters not to shoot at Swallows. This action is very positive and to be encouraged, but nonetheless the numerous photos uploaded of shot swallows is disturbing and gives reasons of concern that our plea is falling on deaf ears.
Yes it is true. Unfortunately illegal hunting is a serious problem that our birds are facing throughout the Mediterranean and Middle East. I think the problem is that in most countries a lot of pressure is being done and the mentality is slowly changing, enforcement too is improving a lot. I don't think this is yet the case with Lebanon and most hunters are defiant of the law. Even the fact that they go on uploading photos of illegal hunted birds speaks enough to show that they aren't gonna get in any trouble
Thanks for this, truly a breath of fresh air and a sign that things may change in the future. Yes it is hard to change the mentality. I can only speak about my country, it took us 3 decades of campaigning to drastically curb abuses and fight illegal hunting. Now its much better, although we have to keep up the pressure as if not we'll be back to square A (as some hunters never learn) , we are pleased with the goals we achieved in bird conservation and set to continue. We hope you will follow to
All these birds that we've mentioned on the other previous posts are protected, chaffinch and all the rest. Whether most hunters are aware of these laws is another issue and thats why we have to create awareness. Shooting chaffinches, blackcaps, bunting and all the other small birds doesn't make any sense and aren't even game birds. I've also noticed that loads of Hoopoes are shot in Lebanon. I've noticed that a number of hunters posted telling other hunters not to shoot at Swallows. This action is very positive and to be encouraged, but nonetheless the numerous photos uploaded of shot swallows is disturbing and gives reasons of concern that our plea is falling on deaf ears.
Yes it is true. Unfortunately illegal hunting is a serious problem that our birds are facing throughout the Mediterranean and Middle East. I think the problem is that in most countries a lot of pressure is being done and the mentality is slowly changing, enforcement too is improving a lot. I don't think this is yet the case with Lebanon and most hunters are defiant of the law. Even the fact that they go on uploading photos of illegal hunted birds speaks enough to show that they aren't gonna get in any trouble
Thanks for this, truly a breath of fresh air and a sign that things may change in the future. Yes it is hard to change the mentality. I can only speak about my country, it took us 3 decades of campaigning to drastically curb abuses and fight illegal hunting. Now its much better, although we have to keep up the pressure as if not we'll be back to square A (as some hunters never learn) , we are pleased with the goals we achieved in bird conservation and set to continue. We hope you will follow to
skylark25
Well-known member
Yes, I'm aware that most comments are not in English. Sorry I don't understand Lebanese
It may be true thats it between 5 hunters or so, but its still a lot of birds, and its quite irrelevant whether its 5 hunters or 1, its still 200 shot birds. Yes agreed, don't you think that I agree that its right that a 1000 birds shot in one day is acceptable. Far from it, there should always be a limit, no animal species in the world every takes more from the environment then it needs, thats why a balance is always kept in the eco-system. It should be the same with hunting and everything else too. When out hunting, only take a fair share of game birds, and not kill as many as you can.
skylark25
Well-known member
Guys , Specialy Skylark 25 .. Plz join us https://www.facebook.com/groups/prolebanesehunters/
and there we will talk abt everything related to lebanon illegal hunting
Ok will do mate, always open for discussion and dialogue. its one of the greatest advantages of the net: Different people from different countries and cultures from around the world can come together to share and exchange their views with a click of a button:t: Thank you
Pro Lebanese Hunters
New member
Thanks mate .. we have lots of questions and would appreciate Ur and all members help we are fighting illegal hunting in Lebanon .. we are alone in this fight .. and we're doing good actually ..
we are fighting illegal hunting in Lebanon .. we are alone in this fight .. and we're doing good actually ..
skylark25
Well-known member
You couldn't have put it down in a better way, agreed 100% Jos, as things stand self regulation is the best option as things stand. I think its high time that european organisations offer help and try to help the law-abiding Lebanese hunters to reach out throughout the hunting community. Also just wondering, is anyone aware if Lebanon are members of FACE or if they have a hunting organisation that represents and regulates them, or is just everyone for himself?
Indeed the arrival of the Lebanese hunters on this thread is positive, and from the few comments I have just read on Facebook, looks like the hunters from the PRO Lebanese Group agree with us and want to try to solve the situation. This comment caught my attention: ''Sadly everything they re saying is true!! I am with them and our group is with them!!'' Hopefully through this thread we can work hand in hand to try and solve or at least minimise the illegal hunting situation for the benefit of hunters, birdwatchers and most importantly the birds themselves because without them, none of us will be practising our hobbies.
Yep I think Bekaa Valley is one of the major hot spots, most of the illegal hunting goes on there.
Agreed, and just to let you know, I have already engaged with Lebanese hunters on one of the groups about the issue ages ago and I also spoke to some hunters on a one to one basis online and we exchanged our views. The results were quite positive and many expressed the will that things have to change, the problem from what I understood seems to be the lack of resources and enforcement for this to actually occur
Yes, whats uploaded here doesn't represent all hunters and we don't won't to generalise. We are only trying to create awareness against illegal and unsustainable hunting. But we have to agree that this is a problem and it needs to be addressed. Also most photos of illegal hunts are taken off immediately. So just because the pictures aren't there, it doesn't mean they're not occurring. Also if they were never uploaded, I would have never seen the pictures and would have never known that this goes on, hence the thread would never have been opened. And what gets online is always the tip of the iceberg, indeed not the whole picture but enough to make it smudged and blur...
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skylark25
Well-known member
Also that now this thread has reached a few Lebanese hunters and its being shared on Facebook, i just want to clarify some points so we make sure the message reaches everyone clear and understood
- I created this thread to create awareness amongst the birding community about the serious illegal hunting problems thats occurring in Lebanon. I thought that if people are aware about it, it would be enough to spark action so maybe one day things will improve
- I created this thread because its a real shame that so much can go on unnoticed and so many turn a blind eye
- We are not against sustainable hunting. We are against illegal hunting of protected species and against unsustainable hunting that creates an inbalance.
In everything there should be a balance and a limit. In every sector of society there are laws and regulations by which members have to abide too, its the same with hunting. These laws aren't created to be a burden, but rather to be a means to safeguard and promote sustainability. There are many birds that are protected and there are may reasons why this is so. Always remember that birds are like indicators of the environment, if they are declining or in trouble that doesn't really augur well for the whole eco-system.
- Sorry if anyone on this thread wrote any abusive comments. It only comes natural to express your disappointment after seeing such pictures. People have different characters and express their feelings in different ways. Not because they actually mean what they wrote, but because they would be somewhat angry. Let this not distract you from the real situation on the ground.
- We need to work together and offer our support to all law abiding hunters in Lebanon in their work to stop illegal hunting. Its not easy, but it has to start from somewhere. Arguing and pointing fingers will get us no where, working hand in hand to reach a balance will
Thank you
Skylark25
- I created this thread to create awareness amongst the birding community about the serious illegal hunting problems thats occurring in Lebanon. I thought that if people are aware about it, it would be enough to spark action so maybe one day things will improve
- I created this thread because its a real shame that so much can go on unnoticed and so many turn a blind eye
- We are not against sustainable hunting. We are against illegal hunting of protected species and against unsustainable hunting that creates an inbalance.
In everything there should be a balance and a limit. In every sector of society there are laws and regulations by which members have to abide too, its the same with hunting. These laws aren't created to be a burden, but rather to be a means to safeguard and promote sustainability. There are many birds that are protected and there are may reasons why this is so. Always remember that birds are like indicators of the environment, if they are declining or in trouble that doesn't really augur well for the whole eco-system.
- Sorry if anyone on this thread wrote any abusive comments. It only comes natural to express your disappointment after seeing such pictures. People have different characters and express their feelings in different ways. Not because they actually mean what they wrote, but because they would be somewhat angry. Let this not distract you from the real situation on the ground.
- We need to work together and offer our support to all law abiding hunters in Lebanon in their work to stop illegal hunting. Its not easy, but it has to start from somewhere. Arguing and pointing fingers will get us no where, working hand in hand to reach a balance will
Thank you
Skylark25
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Pro Lebanese Hunters
New member
Guys , in lebanon they hunt song thrush at night .. did any1 knows abt this fu**ed up hunt ? this is our biggest problem so far ! we CANT go and shot 3 song thrush per day cz of them !
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hello everybody, hope all is well.
as u can c am from Lebanon and i was reading what you guys were talking about and believe me we all feel ashamed and are trying to do something about it. Sadly so far we are only developing enemies for doing so.
the question i need an answer for is this: WHAT CAN WE DO?!?!?
as u can c am from Lebanon and i was reading what you guys were talking about and believe me we all feel ashamed and are trying to do something about it. Sadly so far we are only developing enemies for doing so.
the question i need an answer for is this: WHAT CAN WE DO?!?!?
ProLebHunter
Yves Ba
i already mentioned it in one of my previous posts, but i guess they didn't notice.
this type of hunting is one of the major problems in lebanon. we don't just have a problem concerning protected species, but also game birds.!
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FXM
Frank Moffatt
This is NOT hunting. I don't care what country you're from. If you enjoy shooting/harming wildlife for the sake of it then there's something wrong. In my opinion it's a cowardly thing to be involved in. You should be able to gain all the thrills you need from observation. If you've ever wandered around unarmed in a forest containing dangerous wild animals you'll know it takes far more courage than these pathetic shooters possess.
All the best to those enlightened people in Lebanon that are trying to do something about this. We're all with you and are backing you. It's a very dangerous time for you. Good luck.
All the best to those enlightened people in Lebanon that are trying to do something about this. We're all with you and are backing you. It's a very dangerous time for you. Good luck.
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