Killed in Latvia, Siberian Rubythroat (1 Viewer)

[dantheman]

But on the other hand i don't want to be too harsh on the [un]lucky finder as he, though hasn't been really involved in bird ringing/birdwatching scene in recent years (so rarity ID skills and modern 'birding ethics' probably are not up-to-date), otherwise still has very good reputation among other ornithologists (he's our leading Eagle Owl researcher). He is from the older generation (77 y.o.) and during his younger days (70ties/80ties) when he was also active ringer it was still not uncommon to collect birds for museum collections etc. I guess idea about bird welfare etc. in Soviet Union wasn't as advanced as in Western Europe.

Thanks for the update/explanation. Not ringing, but some ideas in the USA seem even more outdated wrt bird welfare - museums still extensively 'collecting' specimens (of vagrants when they can get away with it, as well as rare/uncommon species in the tropics (there's a thread or two on here about that)).

In perspective I don't know what sanctions will be imposed, but hopefully the tideswell of disbelief/disapproval will help ensure this kind of thing doesn't get repeated.

 

[BIRDERSMS]

Killing a rare bird for a "record" is not 21st century-like, in Europe at most. In South America collection of skins / specimens is still "normal". And on the other hand: how many rarities are hunted and photographed as long ther stamina ("exhausted" anyhow?) lasts? For a tick? We should not be too critical and focus on large scale damage to our planet, poaching, climate change. Good Birding!
Martin

 

[Jonno52]

Only today seen this. It's just appalling and beyond unacceptable. It calls to mind also the Jourdain Society - whose habits have supposedly changed, if indeed it's still functioning, which is not entirely clear from that link. Egging has still not stopped anyway, and there will very likely be an informal network of eggers. Some people may be saying eg "Got a Peregrine egg at "x" location. There's still one left out of that clutch if anyone fancies a jolly jaunt to get it!"

As has been said, "collecting specimens" (and indeed "oology") were seen as acceptable in Victorian and (probably Edwardian) times. Outfits like the JS represent the dying of the old "science" of oology but there is no room for complacency.

Moderators: maybe this is a tad too paranoid, but I'm not quite clear if the BF rules permit detailed discussion of egging. I suppose this place may be patrolled by those whose motive is to gather any info given away about breeding sites. If my post is removed I'm not going to take offence.

 

[CerambyX]

In neighbouring Lithuania for example, I can say that the generation of ringers now active at Ventes Ragas for example are excellent, being both truly knowledgeable and caring about the birds. I know there are many elsewhere in Lithuania and Latvia likewise. This, I think, makes it even more important to raise the standards amongst the small minority that don't share the same modern principles - having press such as 'national first trapped for ringing, but collected' on sites such as Tarsiger, etc, reflects badly on all.

I agree that sure this case is not a good press for local birders etc., but if that's the main concern (and not the well being of the bird) than I feel that probably those who put out the news (not the original finder - so there is no element of boasting etc. on his part, he's too old-school for that) should also receive some criticism. I understand that it might sound a bit backwards, but the deed was done and to be fair - nothing was to be gained by writing that it was 'killed/obtained'. The original finder would get his share of criticism for his actions either way because as I said - our local guys were not happy with this even before news hit the international stage. I believe that in every birding/ornithological community there are things that for different reasons never leave 'inner circles' out to the public. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as said communities have strong moral compass, don't encourage any unethical behavior etc.

Actually I'm rather gutted for my own personal reasons because I unbeknownst to the original finder actually was in that general area that fateful day! So close to one of my dream birds but in the same time - so far away... Hopefully better luck (both for me and next Rubythroat found in Latvia) next time!

 

[Jos Stratford]

I agree that sure this case is not a good press for local birders etc., but if that's the main concern (and not the well being of the bird) ...

Main concern is bird welfare - if a ringer does not place bird welfare first, he should not be ringing.

I understand that it might sound a bit backwards, but the deed was done and to be fair - nothing was to be gained by writing that it was 'killed/obtained'. The original finder would get his share of criticism for his actions either way because as I said - our local guys were not happy with this even before news hit the international stage.

It is positive that Latvia is blessed with forward-thinking guys that condemn this, but regrettably it is not universal - I have received e-mails today in which the respondent has said he doesn't feel this "honorary member of the Ornithological Society" should be punished, also saying he thinks it is not a big deal to take a specimen as it is a species of Least Concern and that the Latvian Museum of Natural History will have nice specimen.

I wondered whether to post this whole thread or not and decided it would be beneficial - by the responses on the thread so far, those in Latvia who are angry by this killing can look at this thread as support for them. For those that think it is no big deal, maybe they will understand a little better that most people don't share their views ...who knows, maybe it will make a repeat performance less likely.

 

[Gaidis Grandans]

Founder of Siberian Rubythroat is a true legend of Latvian ornithology & nature conservation and I have visited his ringing site many times. I was just schocked when I saw pictures and description in FB. Everything was clearly written about situation and a massive discussion started among latvian birders. Just no idea how and why that happened!? Some of my foreign birding friends started to ask what's going on and quite probably it was my "fault" that situation reached such a scale. I posted a remark to tarsiger.com that bird was not exactly "found dead". Despite that, in birdinglatvia.lv from beginning it was posted as "obtained". What else should we do than be honest, because anyhow sooner or later everybody will know truth. Such response of birding community was kind of predictable...Let's hope that nothing like that will not happed in future!

 

[Farnboro John]

Its better to get it in the open and then everyone, including the elderly gentleman with the ancient values, is brought up to date. Actually I've been quite impressed with how civilised the comments have been, while making people's feelings and modern approaches to ornithology very clear. I hope it continues that way.

John

 

[Janis Kuze]

Hello in this forum!
This is a classical case of broked phones when information that was not properly checked was made public. Bird was not deliberately killed as it is written here and in some other places. It was caught by one of our senior ornithologists, Juris Lipsbergs, who is an author of several other new species for Latvia, in the yard of his home. Bird was in bad physical condition with almost no fat. It was decided to keep it in captivity and release in the wild when weather conditions will improve but it died soon after that. We can only speculate for how long would it survive if no human interference.
With best wishes,
Janis Kuze

 

[CerambyX]

EDIT - oops, while I was writing my comment Jānis already clarified things.

Hmm, a new bits of information have surfaced in the story of this unlucky bird. It wasn't actually deliberately killed - first of all the bird was already in poor condition (very low fat score) and as the weather outside was bad (cold + snowfall) finder decided not to release the bird straight away (also to resolve ID). The bird was even given some food (though not sure what kind of food and where the bird was kept during this time) to potentially replenish some energy but to no avail - bird expired shortly after.

It seems that this whole mess is just a case of misinformation and bad wording on part of the guy who first posted info on facebook (from there the 'obtained' was picked up) and miscommunication by rest of us (including me) as the full story should've came out a bit earlier. So yeah.. looks like the story is not that grim after all.

 

[Colin Conroy]

I didn't know anything about this until someone that I follow on Twitter retweeted a tweet containing the following rather mysterious message, and a bit of googling brought me to this thread -
"SIBERIAN RUBYTHROAT IN LATVIA WAS NOT KILLED! It was in bad phis. condition, kept in captivity for while (snow storm started), but died."

 

[Jos Stratford]

After days of increasing criticism of this action, there is skepticism amongst some birders in this part of the world that 'new information' arises a week after the event to totally change the story.

However, let's take it at face value. At least, if the deed did take place, the message has been delivered quite clearly that it is deemed unacceptable.

 

[Janis Kuze]

Yes, I see the reason for you being sceptical. The problem is that person who released the information first was rather uncritical about the facts. There were wrong accents made – the fact that bird was collected for the museum (and using of dead specimen for such purpose is perfectly ok, I believe) was put in the first place while proper explanation of death cause was not provided.

Juris Lipsbergs is an elder man who is not using internet nor social media and who is not communicating his observations as birder community is used to do. When I met him yesterday he was really shocked about the interpretation of this observation and the conclusions made. All this mess is unbelievably unfair to this man who devoted his life to bird conservation in Latvia.

 

[Paul Chapman]

After days of increasing criticism of this action, there is skepticism amongst some birders in this part of the world that 'new information' arises a week after the event to totally change the story.

Jos

I almost posted this a while ago. But decided against.

In the photos, there appears obvious damage to the upper right breast area which I did not associate with my limited experience of looking at specimens in the past.

I do not know the killing methods for bird collection but I would expect them to be such as to preserve the specimen as immaculately as possible. As a result, I had thought that the condition of the bird was consistent with the current presentation of facts by the finder.

Just a thought.

All the best

 

[trw]

Poor old Juris Lipsbergs!
Just shows the damage out of control gossip causes on the Internet.
No wonder he doesn't use it- best thing probably.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Just shows the damage out of control gossip causes on the Internet.

To be fair, it was not 'out of control gossip' - the information was provided by the Latvian Bird Fund on their own site (which still today, in both English and Latvian, states that it was 'obtained').

Yes, I see the reason for you being sceptical. The problem is that person who released the information first was rather uncritical about the facts. There were wrong accents made – the fact that bird was collected for the museum (and using of dead specimen for such purpose is perfectly ok, I believe) was put in the first place while proper explanation of death cause was not provided.

Juris Lipsbergs is an elder man who is not using internet nor social media and who is not communicating his observations as birder community is used to do. When I met him yesterday he was really shocked about the interpretation of this observation and the conclusions made. All this mess is unbelievably unfair to this man who devoted his life to bird conservation in Latvia.

Fair enough, probably better to draw a line underneath this.

I would like to conclude by reiterating comments in my earlier posts that, overall, my experience in the Baltic States is encouraging, an increasing number of birders are becoming ever more active and show ever greater passion for the wildlife of the region. No bad thing.

.

 

[Steve Lister]

The weekly email from HBW listing country firsts has this bird as 'found dead'. Clearly wrong.

Steve