Lady amtherst pheasant , flitwick (1 Viewer)

[Bewick]

Stable isotope ratios have also pointed to Baikal Teals occuring as vagrants in western Europe. I am guessing analysis of the Flitwick pheasant might not reveal anything quite so exotic

Well if its proven with DNA etc then that's good but sadly most of these ducks are not... I am not saying that the pheasant is wild at all, in fact my point is that people will willingly go see escapes if they can somehow pressure the BBRC. The falcated duck was spending its time with a group of mallard, I would assume that most birders pretty much knew that the bird was in fact an escape. The mandarin duck in the US a few weeks back was literally walking amongst the birders yet crowds visited it, it was certainly not even a possible wild bird. People visit birds due to its official status being vague even if they fully understand that the bird is an escape.

 

[Jos Stratford]

The falcated duck was spending its time with a group of mallard, I would assume that most birders pretty much knew that the bird was in fact an escape.

Something wrong with Mallard?

 

[Bewick]

Something wrong with Mallard?

Well it's well known that escapes tend stick with mallards, its like geese with groups of feral barnacles.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Also well known that Mallard are also highly migratory, eg the vast majority of them in this part of the world. Not necessarily the same as a bunch of feral Barnacles.

 

[Bewick]

Also well known that Mallard are also highly migratory, eg the vast majority of them in this part of the world. Not necessarily the same as a bunch of feral Barnacles.

Its apparently enough for the BBRC, they certainly don't do crossway migrations to the other side of Eurasia... Mallards are known to attract escaped birds. Our mallards are extremely intertwined with the domestic mallards.

 

[Bewick]

Its apparently enough for the BBRC, they certainly don't do crossway migrations to the other side of Europe... Mallards are known to attract escaped birds. Our mallards are extremely intertwined with the domestic mallards.

Do you not agree with my point? My argument was that almost certain escapes are visited all the time... if someone wants to visit a magnificent pheasant what's the issue? It's either the bird's rarity that's luring you in or you have an actual interest in the bird.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Its apparently enough for the BBRC, they certainly don't do crossway migrations to the other side of Europe...

They don't? Nobody told the Mallard in this part of Europe

 

[Bewick]

They don't? Nobody told the Mallard in this part of Europe

They don't cross through the whole of Eurasia to get to England.. I thought that was clearly stated. Oops I meant Eurasia not Europe.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Ringing recovering

They don't cross through the whole of Eurasia to get to England.. I thought that was clearly stated.

You said 'they certainly don't do crossway migration to the other side of Europe '.

This they absolutely do. Ringing recoveries of Mallard ringed here in Lithuania... pretty much crossway migration across Europe

 

[Bewick]

Eurasia... I know the European migration routes. But we are talking about the falcated duck and the falcated duck is not from that area.

Ringing recovering

You said 'they certainly don't do crossway migration to the other side of Europe '.

This they absolutely do. Ringing recoveries of Mallard ringed here in Lithuania... pretty much crossway migration across Europe

Ironically this pic has kind of proved my whole point. Again my whole point is that twitchers go for waterfowl based on their status being 'in question' even if its almost 100% more likely to be an escape. My point being proven by the recent mandarin duck in the US.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Ironically this pic has kind of proved my whole point.

Glad you think so. Clearly I don't understand your point.

Your argument:

1. Lady A Pheasant is as likely a wild bird as a Falcated Duck because the chances of escape are basically the same. I disagree.

2. Falcated Ducks are almost certainly escapes because they can occur with Mallards. And Mallards are like feral Barnacle Geese. I disagree.

3. Mallards couldn't be a carrier species as they don't migrate in the same way. I disagree (nor do any ducks migrate east Asia to western Europe, yet we know east Asian ducks have reached western Europe).

4. The Lady A is a hunky dory class A wild bird. I disagree

 

[Bewick]

Glad you think so. Clearly I don't understand your point.

Your argument:

1. Lady A Pheasant is as likely a wild bird as a Falcated Duck because the chances of escape are basically the same. I disagree.

2. Falcated Ducks are almost certainly escapes because they can occur with Mallards. And Mallards are like feral Barnacle Geese. I disagree.

3. Mallards couldn't be a carrier species as they don't migrate in the same way. I disagree (nor do any ducks migrate east Asia to western Europe, yet we know east Asian ducks have reached western Europe).

4. The Lady A is a hunky dory class A wild bird. I disagree

That’s actually taking my arguments and just changing them, I said that the pheasant was not wild… I also said that why does that matter. My point was that these ducks are almost confirmed as escapes yet people still go see them as there status is “in the air”. Also it’s extremely rare for any eastern Asian duck to reach here… in fact I would assume that most of those ducks are also not 100% proven wild. I also argue that they are unlikely carrier species as our mallards do not have the same range as the falcated duck. Also I argue that a huge amount of our mallards are domestics and that’s usually why you find exotics amongst them… it’s also a guideline by the BBRC.

You also don’t understand my point- I’m literally just stating that twitchers only care that a birds status on paper is “in the air” even if the bird is almost certainly an escape.

I was replying to someone who didn’t understand why people went to see escaped bird, I just argued why do people bother seeing ducks that are almost certainly escapes as well. You cannot argue this opinion, again the mandarin in the US is a great example- twitchers do not care about the bird but the rarity… is it an issue pointing that out?

 

[Jos Stratford]

I also argue that they are unlikely carrier species as our mallards do not have the same range as the falcated duck.

Fundamentally, the majority of vagrant birds, regardless of species, end up associating with other species that don't have the same range as them. Arriving on new shores, birds are likely to associate with whatever is around, be that local ducks in the case of Falcated Ducks etc or 'alien' passerines in the case of warblers, etc. (I saw Black and White Warbler in the UK roving with Long-tailed Tits, similarly Red-breasted Nuthatch with Great Tits etc ... they served as carriers despite obviously having completely different ranges).

If a Falcated Duck or Baikal Teal found itself in north-east Europe in late autumn, the overwhelmingly moat abundant duck is Mallard, no big surprise if it settled among them. They all migrate to western Europe, should the vagrant stay behind?

 

[Jos Stratford]

You also don’t understand my point- I’m literally just stating that twitchers only care that a birds status on paper is “in the air” even if the bird is almost certainly an escape.

.... twitchers do not care about the bird but the rarity… is it an issue pointing that out?

No issue. Just don't agree with most of your points.

 

[Bewick]

Fundamentally, the majority of vagrant birds, regardless of species, end up associating with other species that don't have the same range as them. Arriving on new shores, birds are likely to associate with whatever is around, be that local ducks in the case of Falcated Ducks etc or 'alien' passerines in the case of warblers, etc. (I saw Black and White Warbler in the UK roving with Long-tailed Tits, similarly Red-breasted Nuthatch with Great Tits etc ... they served as carriers despite obviously having completely different ranges).

If a Falcated Duck or Baikal Teal found itself in north-east Europe in late autumn, the overwhelmingly moat abundant duck is Mallard, no big surprise if it settled among them. They all migrate to western Europe, should the vagrant stay behind?

The black and white warbler wasn’t carried by the tits… it stuck with them when finding itself in the UK, completely different. Yep just believe you’re stretching the realm of possibility when talking about some waterfowl, especially when that waterfowl was known to stick around with mallards over other ducks. Again my point is that you are seeing the duck even though it’s almost certainly an escape because it’s unlikely to be definitively labelled an escape. Again most baikal teals are escapes, I think accepting that duck in the UK is a slight stretch unless it is proven with DNA, same with the falcated. A duck that is with mallards is more likely to be an escape, this is why it’s a guideline on BBRC.

My sole point is that when you are going to see an extremely rare waterfowl you do not care that it’s most likely an escape because it’s status isn’t set in stone. If it’s proven with DNA then it’s great, though the falcated duck was not and crowds of people still went for it.

 

[Jos Stratford]

The black and white warbler wasn’t carried by the tits… it stuck with them when finding itself in the UK, completely different.

Sorry, not completely different. It stuck with them and moved with them. If a vagrant duck lands on a pool anywhere in northeast Europe, it will find itself primarily with Mallards. If it sticks with them when finding itself in this country, next stop is western Europe.

We will disagree on this, no problem.

 

[Bewick]

Sorry, not completely different. It stuck with them and moved with them. If a vagrant duck lands on a pool anywhere in northeast Europe, it will find itself primarily with Mallards. If it sticks with them when finding itself in this country, next stop is western Europe.

We will disagree on this, no problem.

Yep we will, it’s also almost impossible to prove which is exactly my point… you are going knowing that their is a much higher likelihood that it’s an escape though that doesn’t matter as it’s status can not be definitely proven. It’s perfectly fine but seems slightly dumb to try and argue otherwise, the falcated duck has a tiny chance of being wild, is seen hanging out almost exclusively with mallards and would need extraordinary circumstances to somehow reach the UK- these are at least the facts.

I think going to see a extremely pretty pheasant that you know is an introduction is just as valid as trying to see a duck that you would have to stretch all realms of possibility to validate.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Yep we will, it’s also almost impossible to prove which is exactly my point… you are going knowing that their is a much higher likelihood that it’s an escape though that doesn’t matter as it’s status can not be definitely proven.

Personally, returning to the actual theme of the thread, I think there is an infinity smaller chance of the Lady A being anything but an escape than any Baikal Teal/Falcated Duck arriving in the UK in winter.

Goodnight

 

[Bewick]

Personally, returning to the actual theme of the thread, I think there is an infinity smaller chance of the Lady A being anything but an escape than any Baikal Teal/Falcated Duck arriving in the UK in winter.

Goodnight

I know the pheasant is an escape, haven’t I argued that throughout… you should probably stop changing my arguments.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I know the pheasant is an escape, haven’t I argued that throughout… you should probably stop changing my arguments.

I have not changed your argument - you have constantly equated the likelihood of potential vagrants with the pheasant in terms of being escapes, hence asking why twitchers go to see them. I don't think this is the case and I suppose most birders also do not.