Lesser Black Backed and Herring Gull Complex (1 Viewer)

[Himalaya]

Which birds have been split off from this complex? As far as I know there is:-

1. Herring Gull
2. Lesser Black Backed Gull
3. Yellow Legged Gull - split from Herring Gull
4. Caspian Gull - split from Herring Gull
5. Heughlin's Gull - split from Lesser Black Backed - Gull but seen some photos which indicate they are pale backed

Then there are Steppe Gulls, Vega Gulls, Armenian Gull and so many more. Which other very similar Eurasian Gulls are there that have been split from these or were never part of the Herring Lesser group but very similar.

Also what are the ranges of those groups ie country region and if applicable where they winter. Thanks - just trying to understand this every complicated group.

 

[Farnboro John]

Which birds have been split off from this complex? As far as I know there is:-

1. Herring Gull
2. Lesser Black Backed Gull
3. Yellow Legged Gull - split from Herring Gull
4. Caspian Gull - split from Herring Gull
5. Heughlin's Gull - split from Lesser Black Backed - Gull but seen some photos which indicate they are pale backed

Then there are Steppe Gulls, Vega Gulls, Armenian Gull and so many more. Which other very similar Eurasian Gulls are there that have been split from these or were never part of the Herring Lesser group but very similar.

Also what are the ranges of those groups ie country region and if applicable where they winter. Thanks - just trying to understand this every complicated group.

You missed Smiffy - American Herring Gull.

John

 

[Richard Klim]

Splits adopted by various authorities...

• Larus (fuscus) fuscus - Lesser Black-backed Gull (incl intermedius, graellsii)
• Larus (fuscus) heuglini - Heuglin's Gull (incl 'taimyrensis', barabensis): DB, CBR, BK
• Larus (heuglini) 'taimyrensis' - Taimyr Gull: DB
• Larus (heuglini) barabensis - Steppe Gull: DB
  
  
• Larus (argentatus) argentatus - Herring Gull (incl argenteus)
• Larus (argentatus) smithsonianus - American Herring Gull (incl vegae, 'birulai', mongolicus): BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, AERC, BOU, DB, BK
• Larus (smithsonianus) vegae - Vega Gull (incl 'birulai', mongolicus): IOC, DB, CBR, BK
• Larus (vegae) mongolicus - Mongolian Gull: CBR, BK
• Larus (argentatus) michahellis - Yellow-legged Gull (incl 'lusitanius', atlantis): BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, eBird/Clements, AERC, BOU, DB, AOU
• Larus (argentatus) cachinnans - Caspian Gull: BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, eBird/Clements, AERC, BOU, DB, CBR, AOU, BK
• Larus (argentatus) armenicus - Armenian Gull: BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, eBird/Clements, AERC, BOU, DB

For ranges, see HBW Alive...

• Larus fuscus
  
  
• Larus argentatus
• Larus smithsonianus
• Larus michahellis
• Larus cachinnans
• Larus armenicus

 

[Jim M.]

Nice list Richard. I also found this table at avibase of taxonomy for the subject gulls of the genus Larus:

http://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?avibaseid=4592C07EAC30C4CF&sec=taxontable&version=recent

Pardon my ignorance, but what are "DB" and "CBR" in your list?

 

[Richard Klim]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are "DB" and "CBR" in your list?

Sorry, Jim. I should've included a key.

BK = Birds Korea
CBR = China Bird Report
DB = Dutch Birding

 

[Mohamed Amezian]

Which birds have been split off from this complex?
3. Yellow Legged Gull - split from Herring Gull
4. Caspian Gull - split from Herring Gull

Splits adopted by various authorities...

• Larus (argentatus) michahellis - Yellow-legged Gull (incl 'lusitanius', atlantis): BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, eBird/Clements, AERC, BOU, DB, AOU
• Larus (argentatus) cachinnans - Caspian Gull: BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, eBird/Clements, AERC, BOU, DB, CBR, AOU, BK
• Larus (argentatus) armenicus - Armenian Gull: BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, eBird/Clements, AERC, BOU, DB

In these cases, generally "new species" are split from the "parent species" after a series of splits, sometimes exceeding 2 which doubtless creates confusion for many (especially when reading recent and old works):

- Yellow-legged Gull (2 splits): from argentatus, then cachinnans and finally michahellis.

- Armenian Gull (3 splits): as above plus a third and last split from the Yellow-legged Gull.

To be honest, I got confused some time ago by this and other some more or less similar examples.

 

[Paul Clapham]

Attached is my overview spreadsheet of the large white-headed gulls as currently treated by the major taxonomies. Note that I haven't attempted to cover the whole list described in Richard's post, nor do I cover historical taxonomies. And the groups within it aren't exactly species -- if I tried to do that then two dimensions wouldn't be enough.

(My larger spreadsheet describing the historical treatment of the LWHGs in those taxonomies resembles a dish of huevos rancheros.)

Historically the michahellis group has been combined with some version of the cachinnans group; sometimes mongolicus is included with them and other times it's put in with argentatus and smithsonianus. And heuglinii has wandered in the past although lately it's pretty firmly in the fuscus group.

 

[Richard Klim]

Attached is my overview spreadsheet of the large white-headed gulls as currently treated by the major taxonomies...

A useful overview, Paul.

In summary: H&M and IOC (and also BirdLife/HBW and AERC-TAC) follow BOURC-TSC (see also Collinson et al 2008), except that IOC additionally splits Larus vegae (incl mongolicus) following Yésou 2002; whilst eBird/Clements follows AOU-NACC (1998, 2007), including all Central Asian populations within L cachinnans.

[Further splits are recognised by DB, CBR, BK etc.]

 

[Himalaya]

Thanks for the information - a lot to make sense of lol and by the time some sense has ben made more splits LOL

What would be the default black back and silver back gulls in India, Pakistan and Iran?

It is a long shot but what could this be in the first photo - the Gull.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=299197

 

[l_raty]

What would be the default black back and silver back gulls in India, Pakistan and Iran?

It is a long shot but what could this be in the first photo - the Gull.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=299197

The defaults there would be fuscus, heuglini, barabensis and cachinnans. The bird on your pic is too pale for the two first taxa. Bill looks long(ish) and forehead low(ish), which might be in line with cachinnans, but assessing these on a flight pic may be deceptive, and the apparently very bright bill colour would be more usual for barabensis. Without being able to assess leg colour and wing tip pattern at all, I doubt that we can go farther than this.

The "weakest link" in recent classifications to me remains the species limit that is drawn between Heuglin's and Vega...

 

[Himalaya]

Is Steppe considered a full species or a subspecies of Caspian?

I have always thought that Heuglin Gull had a very dark black back yet I have seen photos online showing them with lighter backs than the British Lesser black back - now is this some one misidentifying the species or misidentification by myself or even a range if shades within the Heuglin species?

 

[Richard Klim]

Steppe Gull

Is Steppe considered a full species or a subspecies of Caspian?

Steppe Gull is treated as a distinct species (Larus barabensis) by Dutch Birding; as a subspecies of Heuglin's Gull L heuglini by Birds Korea; as a subspecies of Lesser Black-backed Gull L fuscus by BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, AERC and BOU; and as a subspecies of Caspian Gull L cachinnans by eBird/Clements and AOU.

 

[l_raty]

I have always thought that Heuglin Gull had a very dark black back yet I have seen photos online showing them with lighter backs than the British Lesser black back - now is this some one misidentifying the species or misidentification by myself or even a range if shades within the Heuglin species?

'taimyrensis' (sensu most published molecular studies) is paler than heuglini and often synonymized with it--so, under some taxonomies, you can get very pale 'heuglini' indeed. (In contrast, Yésou 2002 [here] synonymized 'taimyrensis' with vegae, based notably on mantle colour, which he said changes abruptly west of its range (between it and heuglini), but not east of it.)

 

[Himalaya]

That us even mite complex - the Steppe Gull photos I have seen are grey backed - I assume it would have been put under Herring Gull at first so how do organisations classify it as part if the Lesser Black?

Steppe Gull is treated as a distinct species (Larus barabensis) by Dutch Birding; as a subspecies of Heuglin's Gull L heuglini by Birds Korea; as a subspecies of Lesser Black-backed Gull L fuscus by BirdLife/HBW, H&M4, IOC, AERC and BOU; and as a subspecies of Caspian Gull L cachinnans by eBird/Clements and AOU.

 

[Richard Klim]

South Asia

Fwiw, Rasmussen & Anderton 2012 (Birds of South Asia) and Grimmett et al 2011 (Birds of the Indian Subcontinent) give only heuglini (mainly coastal) and barabensis (more widespread, including Indus Valley) as definite visitors to S Asia, with any other taxa listed as hypothetical/uncertain.

 

[Richard Klim]

Steppe Gull

That us even mite complex - the Steppe Gull photos I have seen are grey backed - I assume it would have been put under Herring Gull at first so how do organisations classify it as part if the Lesser Black?

See Collinson et al 2008 (Species boundaries in the Herring and Lesser Black-backed Gull complex).

 

[l_raty]

That us even mite complex - the Steppe Gull photos I have seen are grey backed - I assume it would have been put under Herring Gull at first so how do organisations classify it as part if the Lesser Black?

Liebers et al. 2001 [pdf] found no differentiation in mtDNA between heuglini and barabensis. Morphologically and behaviourally, barabensis has also been found closer to heuglini than to cachinnans (eg., Panov & Monzikov 2000 [pdf]). Based on this, many treat barabensis as conspecific with heuglini--either within, or out of LBBG.

 

[jalid]

Liebers et al. 2001 ... Panov & Monzikov 2000

A funny thing comparing these two articles is that Liebers et al got their barabensis material from the colonies, which according to Panov & Monzikov are not inside the barabensis breeding areas, but cachinnans. Still the results are very compatible.

On the west coast of India and around Persian Gulf it is comparatively easy to to separate darker adult birds (heuglini) from paler (barabensis - cachinnans), but giving more exact names to the paler birds has been too difficult for most observers. So looking from the wintering areas, it would be more logical to place the specific border between heuglini and barabensis/cachinnans. In reality, it seems that there has been lot of mixing in central and northern Asia and, even identification (=deciding between those three names) of breeding birds, or whole colonies, is not easy. Panov & Monzikov mention that barabensis in their study area give both heuglini and cachinnans like long calls, with many intermediate calls too - commenting that this supports their theory of barabensis being of hybrid origin (another possibility would be that there really were two taxa plus some hybrids in the colony).

 

[Himalaya]

Sometimes I wish I had not started this thread as i cannot digest much of the information. I guess that will take time. Although, it is interesting.

What would this bird be - Hueglin?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dr_farhan/16351669539/

 

[Paul Clapham]

In their latest version (v2015), Clements has split up cachinnans to leave a monotypic Caspian Gull, moving the other two subspecies into other species. The result looks much like IOC and H&M4, except that Clements still lumps smithsonianus and vegae into argentatus.

New overview spreadsheet attached.