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Michahellis Sussex Uk? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jan-Paul Charteris
- Start date
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I will be interested to read Lou's and other specialists' comments. What I see pro Herring:
- Pale eye for a fairly young bird
- Quite dark underwing coverts
- Bill not very thick
Pro Yellow-legged:
- Very advanced bill/4 coloured
- Red eye-ring
So I don't know...
Cheers!
- Pale eye for a fairly young bird
- Quite dark underwing coverts
- Bill not very thick
Pro Yellow-legged:
- Very advanced bill/4 coloured
- Red eye-ring
So I don't know...
Cheers!
Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
Cheers for the reply Valéry. Must admit I thought the dark underwing coverts would be a pro Yellow-legged feature as they have darker underwings in 1cy/2cy plumages? I may be wrong though...I'm still trying to learn michahellis in immature plumages. The legs seem to be pinkish, and I've read they can be yellow in the stage of Y-l Gull, but I think it may be variable as some photos I've seen of 3cy Y-l Gull seem to have pinkish legs. As for the difference in primary moult this bird shows, I'm not sure if that may be significant.
As you say, hopefully some of the guys like Lou, that love larids and are better than me at them can add their opinions!
lou salomon
the birdonist
not so easy with this pic alone. the bird is very delayed in primary moult, either if a 3rd or a 4th cycle. usually at this time most 3cy but also 4cy have replaced some inner primaries - but maybe we just don't see them (short p1 and p2 in strong light?); any way, YLG usually has at least a yellowish tingue to legs (not necessarily to feet), iris generally gets faster pale in YLG (sometimes already in 2cy) but a pale eyed 3cy argenteus in july is abs. OK, so this gives no clue. i actually think it is a retarded 4cy herring gull with delayed primary moult and pretty dark lesser coverts (most median and greater ones seem to be renewed and are whitish). older bird moult later but even for that the large gap (p1-4 missing?) is unusual. legs seem to be short. red orbital? maybe. don't know how many argenteus have reddish orbitals but quite some (esp. eastern) argentatus have. all in all i favour a 4th cycle herring gull, possibly of nominate subsp., even though 3rd cycle p10 usually has a mirror. that would explain its advanced bill too.
actually, with such dark secondaries the 4th cycle theory gets difficult. probably a 3cy in the end, with advanced bill and delayed primary moult. and: there's no 100% exclusion of michahellis possible i think, which usually has such a bill in 3cy july but on the other side also has on average more inner primaries renewed than herring, with an old 2nd generation p4 being really really exceptional...
any more pics of it, jan-paul?
attached 3 examples of how 3cy michahellis can look at the end of july on the western black sea coast. first shot from 29.07.2006 (c.o.manci) and 2,3 from 26.07.2008 (c. mihai), the last one bearing a big exception B
actually, with such dark secondaries the 4th cycle theory gets difficult. probably a 3cy in the end, with advanced bill and delayed primary moult. and: there's no 100% exclusion of michahellis possible i think, which usually has such a bill in 3cy july but on the other side also has on average more inner primaries renewed than herring, with an old 2nd generation p4 being really really exceptional...
any more pics of it, jan-paul?
attached 3 examples of how 3cy michahellis can look at the end of july on the western black sea coast. first shot from 29.07.2006 (c.o.manci) and 2,3 from 26.07.2008 (c. mihai), the last one bearing a big exception B
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Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
Cheers for your reply Lou, didn't get any decent photos of it as it just flew over when I was watching a couple of Whimbrel on the lagoon there. To put it in perspective I saw a rather more obvious 4cy michahellis there the day before, and Pagham is a traditional site for a late summer concentration of Y-l Gulls (though only up to 4 reported in last week, and obviously argenteus are still there in greater numbers). I've attached a couple more pretty poor shots of it which at least show some of the upperwing, though not the mantle. The amount of brown that appeared to be on the upperwing I thought made it a 3cy, but as I said in my previous post, I'm still trying to learn with these, so your input is appreciated :t:
Edit: quite happy to leave it as unidentified if need be, but it's good to know what to look out for
Edit: quite happy to leave it as unidentified if need be, but it's good to know what to look out for
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lou salomon
the birdonist
always good to have more images, jan-paul. generally, LWHGs are hardest and sometimes impossible to ID in midsummer when old feathers are bleached and worn, new ones are not yet in place etc.; i've adjusted the pics a bit, see below.
LBBG might be a better option now, even though i've excluded it last night on the little p10 tongue it has (underwing) which i thought would be not present in any immature western LBBG. but then i found this pic on org: http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg3cyb/3cyjune73.html which proves that there almost allways is an exception in large gulls 8-P - has a nice little pale tongue too...
this would explain the red orbital and the late primary moult (now i can see new 3rd gen. p1 and p2 being there!) - but still doesn't look like a normal 3cy summer LBBG on upperparts. and yes, i'd leave it unidentified unless peter comes by and tells us it has to be one or the other species
cheers
LBBG might be a better option now, even though i've excluded it last night on the little p10 tongue it has (underwing) which i thought would be not present in any immature western LBBG. but then i found this pic on org: http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg3cyb/3cyjune73.html which proves that there almost allways is an exception in large gulls 8-P - has a nice little pale tongue too...
this would explain the red orbital and the late primary moult (now i can see new 3rd gen. p1 and p2 being there!) - but still doesn't look like a normal 3cy summer LBBG on upperparts. and yes, i'd leave it unidentified unless peter comes by and tells us it has to be one or the other species
cheers
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Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
Thanks again for your help Lou, much appreciated :t:
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
Somehow a good news because I was really stumped! With the new photos (structure in flight) I'd favour a bit more YLG...
Cheers
lou salomon
the birdonist
3cy YLG would be much more advanced by now, valery, so this gets the least favoured option for me...
Valéry Schollaert
Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
I don't see that...
Have a look at the attachment here:
Attachments
Jan-Paul Charteris
Sussex birder and budding moth enthusiast
That's cleared that one up then, cheers all!
I missed that detail but it's certainly clear in the montage posted by Peter
I missed that detail but it's certainly clear in the montage posted by Peter
lou salomon
the birdonist
pale basal p10 tongue in 2nd cycle LBGG was new to me, how often do we see that in graellsii, peter?
and did you notice the 3cy mich with a p10 mirror in #4
and did you notice the 3cy mich with a p10 mirror in #4
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SW London birder
Well-known member
This is only a small build on Peter's point, but the new (mainly inner) median coverts are also LBB coloured.
pale basal p10 tongue on was new to me, how often do we see that in graellsii, peter?
and did you notice the 3cy mich with a p10 mirror in #4
I guess such a tongue is rather rare in immature LBBG indeed, though I have not looked hard for this feature yet. Here is a 3rd-cycle from Germany that also shows it:
https://plus.google.com/photos/1156...5500921859722107298&oid=115659792470435170210
Yep, noticed the p10 mirror...
