Moulting Large Gull Bahrain (1 Viewer)

[Howard King]

Uncertain of the identity for this one due to moult - can one of the dedicated Larusites (apologies to infected parties) please pass a comment or two

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/273286/limit/recent

 

[lou salomon]

hi howard!

even us infected (larusitis sounds pretty horrible though) wouldn't get much further than barabensis or heuglini. it looks darkish mantled but upperwing is in a sharp angle making it look prob. darker than it is; shining yellow legs and stubby bill however make me strongly incline towards steppe gull (barabensis) for your bird. this is the "typical" barabensis primary pattern however: http://www.uaebirding.com/uae-gulls...3/28_Gull_28.03.2009-5_files/shapeimage_6.png

all the best,

 

[Howard King]

Lou Would be lost my friend without you JanJ Cau & Gentoo would have hundred of pics and no id -
had gone myself towards heuglini but ...
.
have added the pic before and after - not such nice shots but might help pin down the ID

 

[lou salomon]

on primary moult score this should be a barabensis, howard. even for barabensis it is rel. early with p8 being the shortest growing primary and p7 being on the way to full growth. heuglini should be (on avarage!) in this state by end of october/mid november.

cheers

 

[Howard King]

Ok - saw also lots similar with the primaries/ secondary gap in the feathering of the wing is this also diagnostic

 

[lou salomon]

it depends where exactly the gap is, and given some variation in timing for both sp. it can not be considered as "diagnostic" (which would be a 100% clue). but at least there is a strong argument for steppe gull - and the surrounding gulls all look like barabensis to me.

 

[Howard King]

Ok - followed that what do you make of this one

 

[lou salomon]

it's an immature, 3cy type, so another moult timing is to be considered although close to adult one. p5-6 are missing as far as i can see, so this is much later in moult, it has a p10 mirror (but primaries are 3rd generation) - very hard to conclude now, since moult would be better for heuglini but rest of bird looks lie barabensis to me :king: just a feel.

 

[Howard King]

Just one more to clarify - if you don't mind ignore the youngster behind have given up on them

 

[JANJ]

Howard,
I suppose these are recently taken, and if so - perhaps moult score is a bit advanced for heuglini and thus in favour of barabensis, which by appearance they fit - compared to other possible candidates.
For the last gull in flight above the first winter I would suggest Caspian on features like leg-colour - billshape and long grey tongue on p9.
And why not barabensis for the 1st winter, advanced moult for a similar aged heuglini, that is to say if the images are taken recently.

JanJ

 

[Howard King]

Taken today

 

[lou salomon]

caspian came into my mind immediately when i saw that p9 grey tongue ( for the bird above the 1cy) but then again - how much do we know about the variability in steppe gull? eastern caspian - and that's what this would be - has more black in wing tip than the black sea populations (the ones we are used to see in western europe), in this case reaching down with a solid band to p4 with p8 missing and p7 growing. with that much black it resembles barabensis a lot and according to panov it 'intergrades' with steppe gull - probably somewhere in kasahstan. i expect barabensis to be as variable as other LWHG so who knows exactly how large a grey p9 tongue in a steppe gull could be... probably a male due to heavy bill which looks good for caspian, leg colour hard to ascertain here but a highly variable feature as well.

as for the 1cy, yes, it definitely does not look like a heuglini, but it could be either barabensis or cachinnans to my eyes, a light built and long winged bird, maybe female. the stronger scapular pattern (than that of a schoolbook caspian) is no problem for it being one. it's leggy and has pale greater covert tips. but i'm sure that steppe gull can look pretty identical in fresh 1st winter plumage.

good night

 

[Howard King]

One to wake up to Lou - legs are clear in the next shot

 

[lou salomon]

pale yellow...doesn't help too much. caspian gulls can have grey/colourless or even pinkish legs at this time of year, steppe are more likely to remain yellow.
bill is rel. short for caspian but lacks a marked gonys. again - we remain with the possibility of a steppe/hybrid/caspian gull. maybe someone will go to central asia and southern siberia and study them year round some day. then we could get a better image of all the variation in "baraba gull".