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Where premium quality meets exceptional value. ZEISS Conquest HDX.

New Swarovski zoom scope & eye piece. (2 Viewers)

Since this discussion seems to be taking a turn in the direction of a civilized argument between advocates of high magnification versus advocates of wide fields of view, and since I have (not altogether without reason) been cast in the camp of high-power advocates, I'd like to comment a bit.

I cannot speak for Henry, of course, but what I have been hoping for all these years is to have eyepieces that serve us everything the scope they are attached to can deliver. That is, ideally, we should have a zoom eyepiece that, at the lowest magnification, offers all the field of view the telescope objective-prism system images, and then retains as much as possible of that field of view up to a top magnification high enough to show my eye all the detail the objective is capable of resolving.

For a scope such as the Swarovski 80mm, that would be a zoom that started with a field of 3.44 degrees at 20x and extended all the way up to 80x or more, with the subjective field of view gradually rising from the initial 69 degrees to 75-80 degrees at the higher magnifications, while the eye-relief remained comfortable and edge sharpness as good as the scope itself allows.

Since it seems that such a zoom eyepiece cannot yet be produced, at least not in an acceptable size-and-price range, I think the next best solution is to have two zoom eyepieces on offer, and that is what Swarovski and Leica are now moving towards. The 25-50x Wide is a good start, but alongside the current 20-60x zoom there is too much overlap in the specs for the two eyepieces to really complement one another.

So, in this real world, I'd like to see a manufacturer offering something like a 20-45x Wide zoom AND a 30-90x (as wide as possible) zoom. This would allow me to use the scope to its maximum under all conditions, although having to switch eyepieces now and then would still be an issue.

The other alternative would be the booster solution that Ilkka advocates, and that might actually work very well if the booster were of high enough quality and specifically designed for the purpose. Like Ilkka, I use a Zeiss 3x Classic monocular as a booster, and this would bring the range 75-150x into play with the upcoming zooms. The problems with this setup are first of all the magnification, which should be 2x (giving 50-100x) for the booster for this particular purpose, secondly the loss of light transmission and contrast that come from the addition of quite a number of air-to-glass surfaces, which in the Zeiss aren't even fully multicoated, and thirdly the very narrow field of view that the booster has. I'm sure that a much better dedicated telescope booster could be designed, but I'm less convinced that it would be a better solution than having two zoom eyepieces that would be designed to complement each other.

As far as practical preferences in the field, I will readily admit that I like high powers. I also like wide field, but when forced to choose between the two, and having a scope that takes magnification very well, I choose power. I don't know if I'm just lucky, but I rather frequently find myself using and benefiting from powers in the 50+, 60+ and even 70+ range. For example, just a week or so ago I was in a bird tower around noon, looking at sandpipers on mudflats, and although there was some heat haze in the air I was still benefiting from magnifications around 50x. When a cloud covered the sun, the air stabilized surprisingly quickly, and I soon found myself up at over 70x with perfectly clear and fine images. I find myself unwilling to give up this flexibility with magnification, although I would very much like to have wider fields as well. In the past, I have owned the (then) full range of wide-angle eyepieces for my previous Fieldscope and still have the 38x Wide, but have not used it much on the current scope. But, this is just me, and I understand Ilkka's preference as well and am definitely happy that two zooms that suit it are finally coming out.

As a last comment, limiting the magnification of the zoom to 50x also means that quality issues in the scope itself are not as easy to see. I don't think this is the reason why these zooms are limited to 50x, but when buying such a scope its good to keep in mind if one intends to later use the scope at higher magnifications.

Kimmo
 
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30x WWW ?

So, if the new zoom is catching up the fixed mag eyepieces in terms of field of view, isn't it time we had even wider fixed mag eyepieces for those that prefer them ? 30x WWW ?
 
Not really, if you increase performance in a certain area in order to gain more, then something else will have to compensate and likely suffer....this is why the new Leica and Swarovski zooms are "in the news"......yes they appear to be increasing the width of field but at a cost in relation to keeping the performance at high magnification? Secondly, just look at the amount of negative comments akin to prices. I'm sure a high mag / wide angle / waterproof / neutral colour ocular lens can be produced but whose gonna buy it at a quillion euros?
 
Using a Booster with a zoom eyepiece

The other alternative would be the booster solution that Ilkka advocates, and that might actually work very well if the booster were of high enough quality and specifically designed for the purpose. Like Ilkka, I use a Zeiss 3x Classic monocular as a booster, and this would bring the range 75-150x into play with the upcoming zooms. The problems with this setup are first of all the magnification, which should be 2x (giving 50-100x) for the booster for this particular purpose, secondly the loss of light transmission and contrast that come from the addition of quite a number of air-to-glass surfaces, which in the Zeiss aren't even fully multicoated, and thirdly the very narrow field of view that the booster has. I'm sure that a much better dedicated telescope booster could be designed, but I'm less convinced that it would be a better solution than having two zoom eyepieces that would be designed to complement each other.

Kimmo

All -

Eight years ago I suggested to the designers back at Swarovski Optik, Austria that the Swarovski 2x Booster be fitted with an adapter to enable it to attach to the eyecup threads of the old 20-60x eyepiece. The Swarovski Booster has two roof prisms and either 6 or 8 lenses (I don't remember which), and is in fact a high-quality mini 2x telescope. We at SONA messed around with such a concept and the now-40-120x eyepiece was remarkably good. Using the USAF resolution chart as a guide, the image contrast started to fall off at 100x, but the resolution was still surprisingly good at 120x. However, Austria declined to make such a production model.

Still, all it would take is a decent machine shop to fabricate an adapter ring that mates the 2x Booster to the eyecup threads of the eyepiece.

Clay Taylor
[email protected]
 
R.R.P.s in UK

I've heard through the grapevine that Swarovski are introducing a new titanium bodied 'scope and a new zoom eyepiece.

The zoom eyepiece for the new top Kowa is superior to the Swaro one and this has prompted them to plan this change. A sum of £500 is being rumoured.

Anyone get any further news?

As requested The zoom is as you stated £500, incl VAT, whilst an ATM 80 HD will be £1830 - from a Swarovski press release.
 
As Kimmo I enjoy high magnifications (well probably a little more…;)). I agree with his zoom suggestions (lower magnifications zoom is important for digiscopy…) but my ideal is a sort of Siebert Power Mag Wheel that worked with existing birding scopes. As with astro telescopes http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=93017&page=2 the problem is portability and compactness, for most birders. I’m testing a 0.5x to 3x wheel (so a equivalent to a 6x zoom) with a 30mm 80º 2” eyepiece and the views are great.
Better image quality than the boosters have the powermates and the Siebert's equivalents, but beside in Pentax scopes, is not easy to use them and have other limitations comparing to boosters (have a look at my test on http://pt-ducks.naturlink.pt/cr-telescopes.htm).

Regarding high power utility – on last Sunday, coming from a small week of holidays, I was on Tagus river Nature Reserve and spot a flock of about 600 Plegadis falcinellus in a rice field. As I knew that should be some colour ringed birds I didn’t want to risk to flush them (I was 200km from home…). It was 13:30, a sunny day, there were 29ºC and wind. I opened the back door of my station-wagon, putting the scope on the shadow and seated in the trunk since I had to lowered the tripod to minimize wind effects. I was with the Optolyth 100 and as the 30-90x zoom wasn’t enough to read the colour ring codes, I putted the Pentax XW 5mm, resulting in 126 magnifications! I had my best views with this specie and read some rings - didn't saw many rings since time was short…

David
 
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The zoom is as you stated £500, incl VAT, whilst an ATM 80 HD will be £1830 - from a Swarovski press release

So an overall increase of about £800 for a marginally lighter but optically identical scope body, and a wider-field -of-view but restricted zoom eyepiece? IMHO the world has gone mad...
 
Hi, I also use the 30x WA as of 3 years or so with the 65 HD, but did look long and hard through the proto 25-50 WA at the Birdfair in direct comparison with the 30xWA, 40xWA and standard zoom, and was really impressed. I see people complaining about not having the high end zoom here, but hey I've NEVER been able to see anything sharp through that zoom lens at that mag in the field.... you have got to be joking ! This could be the first zoom lens that I rated highly on spec for field of view and clarity all the way from 25 to 50 though, which probably explains why I've always used a fixed mag.

Anyone know if it's on sale yet ? Anyone bought one ? Anymore feedback welcome !

Good birding, Mark Pearman
 
Hi there ,

I contacted the local sales offices in Belgium recently.
The new zoom is supposed to come on the market in April 2009.
 
Anyone have ANY further news as to when the 25-50 might be on sale in the U.S. ? Obviously, it will be much cheaper there than in Europe, and I'll be visiting the states in April.

I have also steered clear of zoom lenses over the last 35 years and currently use the swaro 30x WA (see previous rave postings by others). I only changed my mind when I looked through the new prototype lens at the last Birdfair (compared it with the 20-60, 30x and rarely used 40x) and there is NO comparison with the 20-60 in focus quality ie. haze at the high end. Then there is of course the FOV which is as good as the fixed 30x, and which makes the 20-60 obsolete, so my guess is that once it's out on the market there could be a lot of secondhand fixed and 20-60 zooms up for grabs.

I noticed a few people barking on about the need for more than 50x but I really don't understand. In 95% of cases you're squinting through an out-of-focus tunnel trying to guess what you are looking at. Now, if Swaro could produce a zoom that focuses that high they would have done so. And the answer is simple because of the new spec.

Before anyone jumps on and says the Leica is better..... I agree that optically it may be !
 
and there is NO comparison with the 20-60 in focus quality ie. haze at the high end. Then there is of course the FOV which is as good as the fixed 30x, and which makes the 20-60 obsolete, so my guess is that once it's out on the market there could be a lot of secondhand fixed and 20-60 zooms up for grabs.

I noticed a few people barking on about the need for more than 50x but I really don't understand. In 95% of cases you're squinting through an out-of-focus tunnel trying to guess what you are looking at. Now, if Swaro could produce a zoom that focuses that high they would have done so. And the answer is simple because of the new spec.

Hi Mark, have you ever looked through a Swaro 20-60 zoom? The reason I ask is that your description doesn't fit with my experience of owning one for the last 3 years.
It is sharp right up to 60x, and the sharpness and FOV is comparable to any wide angle eyepiece at the upper end of the zoom range (50-60x). The only area where you experience 'tunnel vision' is at and around 20x when the field of view is somewhat restricted compared to a wide angle EP. However, you can get used to this if you persevere with it. Personally I use my zoom almost all the time, even though I also own the fantastic 30x wide.

In real world terms, there isn't that much practical difference between 50x and 60x. The real limiting factor is atmospheric conditions like haze, so if you're seriously struggling at 60x, then 50x will only be a little better.

I, like you, am also eagerly awaiting the release of the new 25-50x zoom, if only to see what all the fuss is about, and if it's really worth almost £500!

Only time will tell, but don't expect it to be that much of a leap forward unless you use low powers most of the time. If you do, then why buy a zoom in the first place?

Steve
 
So an overall increase of about £800 for a marginally lighter but optically identical scope body, and a wider-field -of-view but restricted zoom eyepiece? IMHO the world has gone mad...

I think it's called taking the p###!

Still I'm sure there's already a waiting list of people who absolutely must have the latest and best.

I'll content myself with buying one of their secondhand scopes...
 
mark pearman said:
and there is NO comparison with the 20-60 in focus quality ie. haze at the high end.

I don't know about the Swaro but in my Zeiss Diascope 60x is clearly useable, being very very crisp and nice, and I'd really doubt that it'd be any different in the Swaro.

glosbirder said:
I think it's called taking the p###!

Still I'm sure there's already a waiting list of people who absolutely must have the latest and best.

Hear hear. But even if some people must have the very latest kit I'd wonder why they wouldn't go for the Kowa 883, which is apparently (according to a chap I read who had a quick look at both at some Birdfair or other) reigning supreme over even the ATM series.
 
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But even if some people must have the very latest kit I'd wonder why they wouldn't go for the Kowa 883, which is apparently (according to a chap I read who had a quick look at both at some Birdfair or other) reigning supreme over even the ATM series.

well, if you are a digiscoper, why would you even seriously consider anything but a swarovski? and with that new zoom...
 
Dale Forbes said:
well, if you are a digiscoper, why would you even seriously consider anything but a swarovski? and with that new zoom...

Well I've seen some pretty spectacular results from other alpha scopes so i don't think there's any Swaro 'magic ingredient' involved...
 
Hey Gang,

As we all know, sometimes strong accolades as well as slander come from employees of varying companies under an assumed name. I always prefer to be straight up when I come on the forum instead of acting sneaky. I work as a product specialist to Leica Sport Optics, USA, I love digiscoping, and have posted some results that I'm VERY proud of using the brand new 25-50x ww zoom on the new APO Televid 82 mm spotting scope. You can see some of my first results on my blog here:
http://www.birdwatchersdigest.com/leica/2009/02/scopes-at-last.html

and look for continuing quality images on my digiscoped wildlife site here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16435490@N00/

Most importantly though these scopes have been shipping to dealers for over a month now and there are numerous dealers that have these in stock. I feel this scope out-resolves everything I've seen readily available on the market today. However, the good news is you don't have to take my word on it and we don't need to quibble over what "might be" months from now. Nor do we have to pontificate about future happenings. you can all go out and see just how nice this piece is for yourselves right now!!

Good birding,

Jeff Bouton
Leica Sport Optics, USA
 
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