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New unified list of birds - Avilist (6 Viewers)

The Spanish list will require a separate database for all the options. Just the Costa Rica list has sometimes 3-4 names for one species, can only imagine what that will be like for widespread species.

I’ve seen various efforts in a few Latin countries over the years - to varying degrees of success - to standardize common names. I would have (perhaps naively) assumed that CR would have fairly standardized names and Spanish language field guides that use them, but have never looked into it, so I guess not? AR for example has fairly standardized names, as does CL. Mexico was all over the place when I spent a long time birding there 10+ years ago!
 
I’ve seen various efforts in a few Latin countries over the years - to varying degrees of success - to standardize common names. I would have (perhaps naively) assumed that CR would have fairly standardized names and Spanish language field guides that use them, but have never looked into it, so I guess not? AR for example has fairly standardized names, as does CL. Mexico was all over the place when I spent a long time birding there 10+ years ago!
The official CR list does recognize a single name for each species but also lists variant names that are used. The names are mostly standardized by preferring translations of the English name versus those commonly used by people. So on the official list, a Golden-browed Chlorophonia is called a Clorofonia Cejidorada, but I'd be willing to bet 90% of Spanish speakers just call it a Rualdo. And many if not most birders use English names for birds here even if they don't speak English. Also, the most recent field guides (Dyer & Howell CR and Vallely & Dyer Central America) have only been available in English.
 
The Spanish list will require a separate database for all the options. Just the Costa Rica list has sometimes 3-4 names for one species, can only imagine what that will be like for widespread species.
I think the context in this case was specifically English names. I have no idea what is happening with other languages.
 
The Spanish list will require a separate database for all the options. Just the Costa Rica list has sometimes 3-4 names for one species, can only imagine what that will be like for widespread species.
The Argentines and Chileans don't agree on the names for the steamer duck -- quetro or quetru?
 
I think it's not quite a technicality: Clements adds both eBird groups and undescribed forms to the taxonomy. I assume Avilist is not providing those.
For the dim witted, what will be the practical effect on Scythebill and it's users Adam?

If...as quoted above

'The leaders of eBird/Clements, have pledged that their own taxonomic list will cease to exist the very moment that AviList is public'.


Have the IOC made the same pledge? I'm not someone who needs to know their numbers across multiple lists and since I started using the IOC, have never looked at another.

So do I understand that AviList will now be the sole, taxonomic arbiters but nomenclature will remain the remit of national or regional committees?
 
For the dim witted, what will be the practical effect on Scythebill and it's users Adam?

If...as quoted above

'The leaders of eBird/Clements, have pledged that their own taxonomic list will cease to exist the very moment that AviList is public'.

Have the IOC made the same pledge? I'm not someone who needs to know their numbers across multiple lists and since I started using the IOC, have never looked at another.

So do I understand that AviList will now be the sole, taxonomic arbiters but nomenclature will remain the remit of national or regional committees?
I don't think anybody knows this yet, but the website should go live very soon and then all answers will (hopefully) be answered.
 
I keep hearing about this "pledge" but as far as I know the only thing agreed to was the scientific taxonomy. I don't see Avilist getting published and then the next day IOC and Clements disappearing off the face of the planet. Even if in the long-term IOC stops publishing a separate checklist, that would probably be some time off.
 
I keep hearing about this "pledge" but as far as I know the only thing agreed to was the scientific taxonomy. I don't see Avilist getting published and then the next day IOC and Clements disappearing off the face of the planet. Even if in the long-term IOC stops publishing a separate checklist, that would probably be some time off.
The final line, admittedly from 2020, on the IOC's "The Project" page is surely about what is now called avilist:

"It is expected that the IOU Global Checklist will eventually supersede the IOC World Bird List."

And there's still the English names list, which after all was also the initial goal of the IOC World Bird List project...
 
The final line, admittedly from 2020, on the IOC's "The Project" page is surely about what is now called avilist:

"It is expected that the IOU Global Checklist will eventually supersede the IOC World Bird List."

And there's still the English names list, which after all was also the initial goal of the IOC World Bird List project...
Seems pointless given that they usually cede authority to national or regional committees on names or would they override eg BN4B, presuming that the US authority bend to their will? The same question could be asked of AviList.
I keep hearing about this "pledge" but as far as I know the only thing agreed to was the scientific taxonomy. I don't see Avilist getting published and then the next day IOC and Clements disappearing off the face of the planet. Even if in the long-term IOC stops publishing a separate checklist, that would probably be some time off.
I'm more concerned about the practical aspect of keeping my list, will Scythebill continue as is but with a single list, will there be demand to retain Clements and IOC lists on the platform as they stand, alongside AviList?
A lot of these, other than 1, we don't really know the answer for, so this is at least somewhat speculative

2: No. Birdlife and Clements both serve different purposes, Birdlife being focused on conservation and Clements being used for ebird. Howard and Moore are not even formerly part of the process, so they will continue to do there own thing, as will AOS at least and possibly other regional committees. IOC might be the list most likely to be redundant, but I have heard no move on discontinuing the list. The big difference is that they will generally agree on taxonomic questions.

3. I would presume so

4. Who knows. Unless folks go rogue I assume most birders will probably follow along, because they mostly just will keep using whatever they have always used, or whatever ebird follows.
Many people already 'go rogue', especially with their 'this is my list, I count what I want', approach and that is unlikely to change IMO. I think that a great many people will try to retain links to the list they have traditionally followed unless access is removed. I know a few people who cross reference their lists against all authorities but many don't, I don't. I wouldn't necessarily presume that everyone will happily jump aboard here.
To me the eventually scrapping of IOC, BirdLife and Clements taxonomies would be the perfect solution... the production of AviList negates the need for separate IOC, BirdLife and Clements lists, which in time cease to exist. If birdwatchers and ornithologists are not given a choice, then everything ornithological has to be aligned! And if we all use Birdtrack, EBird etc. which in turn are based on the same list, then regional authorities like the NACC and SACC will need to like it and lump it! Sorry, but as I have said many time on this forum, the definition of a species is woolly, and no authority will be 100% right - but having one truth will resolve a lot of confusion, and one authorities truth is as good as another (especially if the new truth is a bringing together of taxonomic opinion through the WGAC)!
The definition of a species is 'woolly', I agree so I see this as an authoritarian approach and it's certainly not 'bringing together' taxonomic opinion, rather enforcing one over others. Many decisions within the committee will have dissenters, I presume that the nine (?) committee members have a vote on various matters so if a majority is say 5/4, that still seems far from definitive to me.

To this non scientist, taxonomy, speciation, still poses a lot of unanswered questions, even at the most basic level 'what is a species' so how can you possibly have 'one truth'. If the scientists can't agree, what chance us mere mortals.
 
To this non scientist, taxonomy, speciation, still poses a lot of unanswered questions, even at the most basic level 'what is a species' so how can you possibly have 'one truth'. If the scientists can't agree, what chance us mere mortals.
From various discussions on this forum, my understanding is that the definition of a species is difficult and perhaps a rather man made construct. It can be argued that taxonomy is a rather theoretical and opinionated science. For many scientific fields, science is hard fact - yes there will definitely be peer reviews, but you don't need the 'judgement' of a panel of the wise to establish facts, just to establish a consensus of viewpoints.

What surprises me I suppose, is how keen many of us dabble in taxonomy, rather than just being content with the output...as birdwatchers do we really need to get bogged down in what is a species, or can we just accept that people have spent a lot of time creating a 'list', that allows me to classify my observations?

You could argue that a single list is authoritarian, but there is nothing stopping me from using whatever version of any list from any time period... It would be a bit like using Windows 10... yes updates will cease this year, but you will still be able to use it, and probably without much to worry about.

We can choose to be affronted or reflect on the consequences and impact of 'authoritarianism'. We loose or gain a few species, which we could consider a loss or a benefit, we may also have a tedious process to convert (perhaps not if convergence is a slow process implemented over the years, as appears to be happening), but we also benefit in other ways - for example hopefully our field guides align with trip reports, checklists and general discussions about what we are looking at - As a real example, I found it rather frustrating in PNG that my field guide was based on BirdLife, the tour info on IOC... and if you were using EBird, well then Clements!... and this was at a time when the taxonomy or PNG birds was in a state of flux anyway.

If we assume that taxonomy is too complex for mere mortals (and scientists) to agree upon, then what is the real advantage of having three competing viewpoints? - Multiple viewpoints can be valuable for important issues (say a second medical opinion), but otherwise??? We don't even have multiple viewpoints in law (just the viewpoint of a single jury).

I don't think anyone is able to really argue that their adopted taxonomy is better than the other ones. It seems more to be where you live that sways the decision (Clements the States, IOC Europe etc.). I actually recall starting to use IOC and then being pleased I was ahead of the game, when the BOU declared they were ditching their regional taxonomic list and adopting the same. I chose IOC not because I thought it the best, but because it was available on the internet and regularly updated. However, I have always thought BirdLife's list is probably the best, as it is includes taxonomic notes, which at least allow me to understand their perceived logic behind a lot of decisions - it is less of a black box technology... but they were woefully late at making their list available online (well at least complete with subspecies, and their list still does not include range information).

I have spent a vast amount of time trying to align IOC, BirdLife and Clements to build a database system, then to map this information againt country checklists and my work is virtually complete. You could therefore argue that I have skin in the game of keeping three lists going, but the work has been a chore and tiresome, and the database has to be tweaked for every update (4 per year - 2 IOC, 1 Clements, 1 BirdLife). It would be much simpler for me if there was one practical list - more time bird watching and less time coding. There may be few people who spend time maintaining databases of multiple taxonomies, but I know a few.

Perhaps the efforts to create databases on multiple taxonomies are rather extreme, but I can't help think about every book, report, magazine, database etc. where the authors/curators need to select a taxonomy (which one will appeal most to me audience? which one will be most compatible with other regional works?) and consider taxonomic sequence and taxonomic change (what do I need to rearrange, rename, split and lump following the latest revision)... at least a single taxonomy with negate the need for the first consideration.

For me, I can see benefit (although I seem to be loosing species from my life list in the latest updates and convergence). Is there a real disadvantage, apart from the imposition of having a taxonomy foisted upon you?... and thanks to the WGAC this appears to be being done surreptitiously in any case...in baby steps with each and every update of a taxonomy.
 
2: No. Birdlife and Clements both serve different purposes, Birdlife being focused on conservation and Clements being used for ebird.
Sorry, saw this referenced in the post above (although it is from a long time back)... cannot conservation and ebird be aligned, I would have thought that having a citizen science project aligned with conservation would be ideal?
 
From various discussions on this forum, my understanding is that the definition of a species is difficult and perhaps a rather man made construct. It can be argued that taxonomy is a rather theoretical and opinionated science. For many scientific fields, science is hard fact - yes there will definitely be peer reviews, but you don't need the 'judgement' of a panel of the wise to establish facts, just to establish a consensus of viewpoints.
Applying those 'facts' is problematic in itself here because some, believe that certain facts are definitive whilst other s don't, morphology for example
What surprises me I suppose, is how keen many of us dabble in taxonomy, rather than just being content with the output...as birdwatchers do we really need to get bogged down in what is a species, or can we just accept that people have spent a lot of time creating a 'list', that allows me to classify my observations?
I must be one of the few then who, despite it being through gritted teeth sometimes, always implement changes as directed by the list I use.
You could argue that a single list is authoritarian, but there is nothing stopping me from using whatever version of any list from any time period... It would be a bit like using Windows 10... yes updates will cease this year, but you will still be able to use it, and probably without much to worry about.
So that makes this just another list to add to the mix.
We can choose to be affronted or reflect on the consequences and impact of 'authoritarianism'. We loose or gain a few species, which we could consider a loss or a benefit, we may also have a tedious process to convert (perhaps not if convergence is a slow process implemented over the years, as appears to be happening), but we also benefit in other ways - for example hopefully our field guides align with trip reports, checklists and general discussions about what we are looking at - As a real example, I found it rather frustrating in PNG that my field guide was based on BirdLife, the tour info on IOC... and if you were using EBird, well then Clements!... and this was at a time when the taxonomy or PNG birds was in a state of flux anyway.
This is down to authors and trip report publishers, the use of scientific names comes in to it's own here and it isn't that hard to identify any anomalies when they arise.
If we assume that taxonomy is too complex for mere mortals (and scientists) to agree upon, then what is the real advantage of having three competing viewpoints? - Multiple viewpoints can be valuable for important issues (say a second medical opinion), but otherwise??? We don't even have multiple viewpoints in law (just the viewpoint of a single jury).
Well now we have yet another.
I don't think anyone is able to really argue that their adopted taxonomy is better than the other ones. It seems more to be where you live that sways the decision (Clements the States, IOC Europe etc.). I actually recall starting to use IOC and then being pleased I was ahead of the game, when the BOU declared they were ditching their regional taxonomic list and adopting the same. I chose IOC not because I thought it the best, but because it was available on the internet and regularly updated. However, I have always thought BirdLife's list is probably the best, as it is includes taxonomic notes, which at least allow me to understand their perceived logic behind a lot of decisions - it is less of a black box technology... but they were woefully late at making their list available online (well at least complete with subspecies, and their list still does not include range information).
Totally agree but pick one and stick with it - or not.
I have spent a vast amount of time trying to align IOC, BirdLife and Clements to build a database system, then to map this information againt country checklists and my work is virtually complete. You could therefore argue that I have skin in the game of keeping three lists going, but the work has been a chore and tiresome, and the database has to be tweaked for every update (4 per year - 2 IOC, 1 Clements, 1 BirdLife). It would be much simpler for me if there was one practical list - more time bird watching and less time coding. There may be few people who spend time maintaining databases of multiple taxonomies, but I know a few.
Of great use would be the inclusion of racial information where other checklists disagree and appoint full species status.
Perhaps the efforts to create databases on multiple taxonomies are rather extreme, but I can't help think about every book, report, magazine, database etc. where the authors/curators need to select a taxonomy (which one will appeal most to me audience? which one will be most compatible with other regional works?) and consider taxonomic sequence and taxonomic change (what do I need to rearrange, rename, split and lump following the latest revision)... at least a single taxonomy with negate the need for the first consideration.
Simple annotation as I mention above would suffice? As I said in another post, I think some people might stick with what they know, if available, I probably will.
For me, I can see benefit (although I seem to be loosing species from my life list in the latest updates and convergence). Is there a real disadvantage, apart from the imposition of having a taxonomy foisted upon you?... and thanks to the WGAC this appears to be being done surreptitiously in any case...in baby steps with each and every update of a taxonomy.
People are currently free to make their own choice as to what is 'foisted' upon them in deciding what authority to follow, with this new list, that will be taken away if the other lists are discontinued. My own list has been thoroughly savaged in the last year but I stick with it.
 
I'll just comment on a couple of points in a post with many worth discussing.
What surprises me I suppose, is how keen many of us dabble in taxonomy, rather than just being content with the output...as birdwatchers do we really need to get bogged down in what is a species, or can we just accept that people have spent a lot of time creating a 'list', that allows me to classify my observations?

But what proportion of birders are that interested in the taxonomy? People on this subforum are self selecting.

If we assume that taxonomy is too complex for mere mortals (and scientists) to agree upon, then what is the real advantage of having three competing viewpoints? - Multiple viewpoints can be valuable for important issues (say a second medical opinion), but otherwise??? We don't even have multiple viewpoints in law (just the viewpoint of a single jury).

Consider the competing viewpoints as different scientific hypotheses, which can and will be tested. They are essential for those interested in the science and some knowledge of what species may be newly recognised or lumped can be useful for a birder planning trips.

Law does evolve based on decisions by courts and changing interpretations. Just look at some of the US Supreme Court decisions on various constitutional amendments or the UK Supreme Court's recent decision on trans rights within the equality act. And during the appeals process, different courts can come to different decisions (viewpoints, hypotheses on the facts and meaning of the law ). The difference is there is no birding supreme court, unless that's what Avilist becomes.
 
People are currently free to make their own choice as to what is 'foisted' upon them in deciding what authority to follow, with this new list, that will be taken away if the other lists are discontinued. My own list has been thoroughly savaged in the last year but I stick with it.
Yes and no. Lets assume that all the current lists stay in use and are issued with updates. It is readily apparent from recent updates that IOC, Clements and BirdLife taxonomies are coming closer together as a result of the WGAC, and BirdLife and Clements have apparently committed to adopting the WGAC's findings.

This means that in reality if you stick with one of these lists, in time your list will converge with and become the AviList, without you even knowing it!

through gritted teeth sometimes
I must admit that I lost quite few on the latest IOC update - Foveaux Shag, White-breasted Cormorant, African Hoopoe, Dark-capped Bulbul (and no additions!). But why the passion, why the gritted teeth? I am passionate that Foveaux Shag is really a species and that they have got it wrong? No, for me it is because I went out of my way to see both Foveaux and Otago Shag when I was in New Zealand, and I have now lost 1 from my list.
 
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I must admit that I lost quite few on the latest IOC update - Foveaux Shag, White-breasted Cormorant, African Hoopoe, Dark-capped Bulbul (and no additions!). But why the passion, why the gritted teeth? I am passionate that Foveaux Shag is really a species and that they have got it wrong? No, for me it is because I went out of my way to see both Foveaux and Otago Shag when I was in New Zealand, and I have now lost 1 from my list.
You just answered your own question.

Regarding the Shag, not one I was aware of but I found this which is basically applying the PSC so I can't see why it was split in the first place?

'The species was split based on a molecular phylogenetic study published in 2016 but were then re-lumped when a later study by some of the same ornithologists found that the two species were separated by only a shallow genetic divergence.'
 
Consider the competing viewpoints as different scientific hypotheses, which can and will be tested.
I am not sure how many of us take multiple taxonomic information and then use this to test this information. I may try and see a certain subspecies because it is treated as a species by some, but this is more 'insurance' rather than anything scientific.

I don't think that species research is driven by published taxonomies. Do field scientists specialize in a certain area or on a certain genus, and 'discover' species through their scientific work, then publish their findings which are picked up by taxonomic authorities? Or do scientists go out of their way to resolve differences of opinion created by different taxonomic authorities? I suspect the answer is the former, and that global taxonomies merely reflect scientific work, rather than directing new work.

I have previously argued that information should be published on missing information that prevents a decision being made, so that citizen science could try and fill the gap - say vocal difference has not been established for forms x and y, and then people lucky enough to encounter the forms could try and record it... but this is not how species papers are developed... they are not collaborative projects, but normally the work or scientists being careful to not be pipped to the post and therefore working in relative secrecy.

And what about all the narrow or problematic decisions that are widely adopted? Not wanting to get (again) into the thorny issue of Thayer's Gull, but this was a narrow NAC majority decision, which came about due to the 1960's data being discredited and therefore forcing the panel to fall back on the previous taxonomic position. The fact that all main taxonomies have made the same decision (I think before the WGAC, but I could be wrong), makes it look like the decision is definitive, when really there is a lack of information (no proof that the forms do not hybridize on the unsurveyed breeding grounds). Having three global taxonomies, therefore does not necessarily show us where decisions are definitive, or where further research is required - it just gives an impression this is the case.

Law does evolve based on decisions by courts
Yes, but a single taxonomy evolves too... this is why each current taxonomy are updated each year.
 
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You just answered your own question.
Yes, but in the grand scheme of things, when I sit back with a beer, it is not worth getting upset about, as it is just minus 1, so why the gritted teeth?... and I enjoyed birdwatching at Dunedin anyway.

And if the minus 1 is that important (I am that competitive), then having a single world list will let me compete in a global league!

'The species was split based on a molecular phylogenetic study published in 2016 but were then re-lumped when a later study by some of the same ornithologists found that the two species were separated by only a shallow genetic divergence.'
I recall that BirdLife never split it. Actually, quite a lot of the recent changes (including the Redpolls) are what BirdLife has been saying all along, which perhaps does suggest it is the best after all!

I therefore had a suspicion it may get lumped one day. I mentioned this one as a bit of a joke, as I would challenge anyone to have a strong suspicion as to why this is a species... They are one of those birds that only a minority can be identified with any confidence in the field (something to do with the warty skin on the face and only in breeding season, although one shows a greater proportion or dark phase birds than the other).

I have heard a more troubling report that the genetic difference with Chatham Shag (which I also saw) is less than between either Otago or Foveaux (can't remember which). So is this one species with a reasonable level of divergence, or now two species with a 'intermediate' form assigned to Otago Shag?
 
My experience is that very few birders follow or care much about taxonomy. In my birding club which has something like maybe 20-30 active members/birders, from my conversations I am usually the only one who knows what might be going on in this area. There are also a few others who are aware of when species are split/lumped/have names changed, but its in part to keep up with ebird and they don't necessarily know why or have strong feelings. Nowadays, at least stateside, the majority of folks are just going along with whatever ebird says, and if they don't ebird, their probably just going along with whatever the version of their field guide they have says.

As for if a movement like Avilist is authoritarian or not, I suppose on some level any checklist is. If you use ebird, then you are just plain stuck with whatever decision Clements wants to follow. So going from 3 to 1 major checklist probably is really only going to influence the few of us who do shop around the different taxonomies, because going forward there will simply be less options to pick from, if you disagree with the decisions of one. But there is also nothing stopping an individual birder from recording whatever they want, creating there own list for those inclined (like TiF and what I am doing currently), or for authors to do what they want.
 

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