Slimbridge WWT- why the wildfowl collections? (2 Viewers)

[payaminotom]

Since moving to the Southwest of the UK I've been to slimbridge a couple of times. There's some great work being/been done there, that much is clear, and the conservation potential of the site is clearly a great thing for the severn Estuary.

However, every time I go I'm left with a sour taste in my mouth. The hundreds of wing-clipped captive exotic wildfowl honestly disgusts me. For me, it's cruel and barbaric to treat animals in this way, trapped with a life sentence to be gawked and gaped at, mutilated so that they can never fly again or at all in their entire lives, either in actual cages or in artificial puny ponds that are ridiculously unfit for purpose, especially considering the numbers of captive birds the reserve. There's also the poor otter, all alone in a tiny enclosure, which they parade about every weekend for the kids who have obviously no concept of how cruel it is to keep an animal alone in such a way.

I get why. For them, having an on site zoo broadens their appeal, means that they get more visitors, more members, and ultimately more money. For me, its totally unacceptable for a conservation charity to impose such mass cruelty upon wild animals just to get themselves a bit of extra cash. Its like if Save the Children set up a human trafficking ring, or if Shelter started selling crack to the homeless to boost their income.

This issue really lowers my opinion of WWT as an organisation, and means that they lose out on my custom as a regular visitor or member despite my support of their local conservation work. What say the rest of the Birdforum community? Does this sort of thing bother you as well? Or is animal cruelty a fair price for rare birds?

 

[Kits]

We went for the first time in June this year. I’d not realised about the zoo aspect and it made me very uncomfortable.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I'm not sure I see cruelty in the Slimbridge collections, but do see a real benefit of showing children (and adults) birds close up with information on them and why they need to be protected, etc.

On top of that, these captive birds have been the basis of reintroductions, no? Ne ne and the like?

Personally, though a birder for eons, I actually like wandering through the collection at Slimbridge on the rare occasion I am in the UK, and the number of kids I have seen clearly enjoying it also says to me that it's not a bad idea.

And yes, of course, there is the financial aspect - entrance fees, extra membership fees, responses to appeals ... surely healthier to have a greater pool of potential supporters than the more dedicated birder types that would visit to watch fairly distant dots on the estuary and wild pools?

 

[puff the magic dragon]

I agree with all of the above, goes against what Sir Peter Scott stood for

 

[Jos Stratford]

I agree with all of the above, goes against what Sir Peter Scott stood for

Peter Scott oversaw the establishment of the collections at Slimbridge

 

[payaminotom]

I'm not sure I see cruelty in the Slimbridge collections, but do see a real benefit of showing children (and adults) birds close up with information on them and why they need to be protected, etc.

Totally disagree, there is no basis in reality that animals cruelty is a necessity for teaching about the value of conservation for specific species. Can you explain why you don't see the cruelty aspect? You're not alone, many are totally oblivious, but imo its a pure reflection of a human-centric worldview, where the experiences of other sentient creatures don't matter.

On top of that, these captive birds have been the basis of reintroductions, no? Ne ne and the like?

There are dozens of species held captive at Slimbridge. I cant find any info online of any other reintroductions other than nene. For sure the vast majority of other species there have never been kept because of such a necessity, most of them a common in the wild in their geographical region. So why?

Personally, though a birder for eons, I actually like wandering through the collection at Slimbridge on the rare occasion I am in the UK, and the number of kids I have seen clearly enjoying it also says to me that it's not a bad idea.

Kids enjoy a lot of things that are not good ideas.

And yes, of course, there is the financial aspect - entrance fees, extra membership fees, responses to appeals ... surely healthier to have a greater pool of potential supporters than the more dedicated birder types that would visit to watch fairly distant dots on the estuary and wild pools?

I do absolutely agree that appealing to more than just the birding crowd is great, but creating a zoo is absolutely unnecessary for that. Here in UK, RSPB do a much better job of that, looking at the numbers alone you can see that, but in fact there's a great example just across the river at Newport Wetlands, where massive emphasis is put upon welcoming disadvantaged groups to the reserve, tackling access to nature head on. To be honest, you only have to look at the extortionate memberships fees for WWT to know that they're definitely not about having a "greater appeal" where it actually matters... not very welcoming on the wallet I'll tell you that for nowt!

It was indeed Peter Scott's big vision, but it seems to also be his biggest hypocrisy.

 

[Phil Andrews]

Totally disagree, there is no basis in reality that animals cruelty is a necessity for teaching about the value of conservation for specific species. Can you explain why you don't see the cruelty aspect? You're not alone, many are totally oblivious, but imo its a pure reflection of a human-centric worldview, where the experiences of other sentient creatures don't matter.


There are dozens of species held captive at Slimbridge. I cant find any info online of any other reintroductions other than nene. For sure the vast majority of other species there have never been kept because of such a necessity, most of them a common in the wild in their geographical region. So why?


Kids enjoy a lot of things that are not good ideas.


I do absolutely agree that appealing to more than just the birding crowd is great, but creating a zoo is absolutely unnecessary for that. Here in UK, RSPB do a much better job of that, looking at the numbers alone you can see that, but in fact there's a great example just across the river at Newport Wetlands, where massive emphasis is put upon welcoming disadvantaged groups to the reserve, tackling access to nature head on. To be honest, you only have to look at the extortionate memberships fees for WWT to know that they're definitely not about having a "greater appeal" where it actually matters... not very welcoming on the wallet I'll tell you that for nowt!

It was indeed Peter Scott's big vision, but it seems to also be his biggest hypocrisy.

Ironically given the timing of this thread the WWT has launched its new corporate strategy - well worth a read

Wetlands are the way: Our new strategy to 2030

Today we have published our strategy to 2030, setting out how we will operate and our priorities for the next seven years, including a commitment to restoring wetlands and unlocking their power.

www.wwt.org.uk

 

[Jos Stratford]

Totally disagree, there is no basis in reality that animals cruelty in reality...

Can you explain why you don't see the cruelty aspect? You're not alone, many are totally oblivious

So why?

Kids enjoy a lot of things that are not good ideas.

... absolutely unnecessary for that.

I'll tell you that for nowt!

but it seems to also be his biggest hypocrisy.

Well, you did ask "What say the rest of the Birdforum community?" I just gave my opinion, but I see it vastly differs from yours

 

[payaminotom]

Well, you did ask "What say the rest of the Birdforum community?" I just gave my opinion, but I see it vastly differs from yours

True! I do appreciate you giving your opinion, i just feel very strongly about matters regarding animal cruelty. Apologies if I came across overbearing, would genuinely be very interested to hear why it's not cruelty in your eyes tho.

 

[rosbifs]

So I used to take my kids, grand parents etc

They were happy to see the ducks and geese up close but were bored rigid in the 'wild' sections. The grand parents just wanted a good coffee and the kids wanted an ice cream/

Surely there has to be a balance between the wild and the zoo aspect. I would suspect that the zoo aspect attracts more visitors on the whole and therefore funds worldwide projects - compare visitor numbers with any given 'pure' reserve.

I hope that it has sewn the seeds for the future....

 

[Paul Chapman]

There are dozens of species held captive at Slimbridge. I cant find any info online of any other reintroductions other than nene. For sure the vast majority of other species there have never been kept because of such a necessity, most of them a common in the wild in their geographical region. So why?

The nature of your language and the manner in which you have put your arguments mean that I am not intending to engage with you beyond responding that you should do more research before making the suggestion that the WWT's behaviour is analogous to a human trafficking ring. I admire the strength of your feeling and indeed your idealism but more experience of the world would establish to you that they are the good guys and launching broadsides such as this is misplaced.

I do not understand how you can possibly have made any effort to look at other conservation programmes if you have only found Nene... Their expertise in managing their collections has been put to exceptional good works.

Saving the Madagascar pochard

Madagascar pochards are diving ducks. They are critically endangered. They spend almost all of their time on water and crucially, they feed underwater. This means wetland health and suitability is key to their existence.

www.wwt.org.uk

Reintroducing common cranes

The common crane is a tall bird, extinct here in Britain for 400 years. When a few began to recolonise Britain, WWT's expertise at restoring waterbird populations allowed us to hatch a daring plan to reintroduce them for good.

www.wwt.org.uk

Spoon-billed sandpipers

Perilously close to extinction, the spoon-billed sandpiper now faces a rosier future thanks to ground breaking conservation and state of the art technology. But with fewer than 800 birds worldwide, their future is still far from certain.

www.wwt.org.uk

Eurasian curlew recovery

The curlew is now regarded as the most pressing bird conservation priority in the UK, where we hold a quarter of the world’s population. We aim to slow its decline through headstarting, research and community engagement.

www.wwt.org.uk

Black-tailed Godwits

Black-tailed godwits’ main historic threat has been the draining of wetland habitat to provide land to grow food for humans. Now flooding and predation are also causing issues. Through Project Godwit we aim to protect the breeding population in the UK.

www.wwt.org.uk

Baer's pochard conservation

Baer’s pochard came into sharp focus in 2012 when it was listed as Critically Endangered by the IUCN. It has undergone a rapid decline, pushing this duck to the edge of extinction. Urgent action is needed within China to address the critical threats.

www.wwt.org.uk

And I say that as someone exasperated by introductions, reintroductions, headstarting, etc.

Your original post goes so far beyond sensible and justifiable comment in places and to me it is clearly defamatory. I considered reporting it as such to be removed by the moderators as a result but saw that it was greeted positively by the site's Social Media Editor so concluded that it would fall on deaf ears.

Good luck in your research.

All the best

Paul

 

[PYRTLE]

I'm with Paul and the much bigger picture....... perhaps try reading a book about Sir Peter Scott and why he started the conservation and wetland protection.

 

[payaminotom]

I do not understand how you can possibly have made any effort to look at other conservation programmes if you have only found Nene... Their expertise in managing their collections has been put to exceptional good works.

I would say I am pretty well informed on the various fantastic conservation projects that WWT and slimbridge have been a part of, and I admire them too! If you reread the first paragraph of my initial post you can see this contradiction has me quite torn.

For reference, I did know about the projects youve linked. None of these other projects youve linked involve species kept in captivity in the collections for the purpose of captive breeding for reintroduction, except Baer's which have not even been used in a reintroduction project as yet. All the projects you link are pretty great in my opinion, because they are all conservation work that do not utilise the unnecessary mistreatment, mutilation, and imprisonment of sentient animals. What I'm talking about is the zoo, not the rest, and I made that very clear.

I admit I can be quite an argumentative person, and again I'll apologise if I seemed overbearing, like I say it's just something that I feel very strongly about, as all those hundreds of animals locked up in there deserve a better fate than that. But defamatory, I refute wholeheartedly. That would mean what I said would be untrue 😉

(by the way the trafficking comment was intended as a dramatic illustrative comparison, designed to draw attention to the ridiculousness of a conservation charity engaging in such acts of cruelty against animals, but I think that was clear)

To quote another birdforum regular, No Offence!

 

[Jos Stratford]

None of these other projects youve linked involve species kept in captivity in the collections for the purpose of captive breeding for reintroduction, except Baer's which have not even been used in a reintroduction project as yet.!

Stand to be corrected, weren't Spoon-billed Sandpipers raised at Slimbridge and subsequently reintroduced. If I recall correctly, and maybe I am not, it was very much their expertise built up through their history of captive breeding at a wider scale that enabled them to achieve this for this critically endangered species.

 

[Phil Andrews]

Stand to be corrected, weren't Spoon-billed Sandpipers raised at Slimbridge and subsequently reintroduced. If I recall correctly, and maybe I am not, it was very much their expertise built up through their history of captive breeding at a wider scale that enabled them to achieve this for this critically endangered species.

"As a final defence against total extinction an “ark” population of spoonies was established in 2011 at WWT Slimbridge. As time was running out, a hasty expedition was made to bring chicks back from Russia, resulting in 13 spoonies landing safe and sound in the UK. The following year another expedition was undertaken, this time to bring eggs back to rear here. This added another 17 to the flock at WWT Slimbridge, creating the first and only captive population of spoonies to date."

This is addition to work done "in the field" out in the East.

 

[Jos Stratford]

For me, it's cruel and barbaric to treat animals in this way, trapped with a life sentence to be gawked and gaped at, mutilated so that they can never fly again or at all in their entire lives, either in actual cages or in artificial puny ponds that are ridiculously unfit for purpose.

'cruel and barbaric'
'mutilated'
'trapped with a life sentence'
'gawped and gaped at'
'puny ponds'

Or an alternative view, happily waddling around without a care in life, plodding up to the two-legged visitors for free lunch, then shuffling back to their pool.

And when those poor mutilated ducks are pondering their life sentence, they then gaze across at all the interloper Moorhens and think 'what the heck, why are these here birds breaking in, not out?!'

 

[payaminotom]

Stand to be corrected, weren't Spoon-billed Sandpipers raised at Slimbridge and subsequently reintroduced. If I recall correctly, and maybe I am not, it was very much their expertise built up through their history of captive breeding at a wider scale that enabled them to achieve this for this critically endangered species.

Do you really think this is the same as the rest of the collection at Slimbridge tho? There are hundreds of birds kept there with no intention or need of a captive breeding programme.

'what the heck, why are these here birds breaking in, not out?!'

Look forward to seeing the next breakin of Coroscoba Swan 🙄 All these species are thousands of miles away from home, trapped in ponds that aren't big enough for them by forcibly cutting their wings and or feathers. And what do you have to say of all them flamingoes in their sheds? Or the southern screamers in their 10 square foot of mesh? You think that's sufficient habitat? You think they are happy?

 

[Jos Stratford]

You think they are happy?

I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that they are unhappy. You are supposing they are unhappy, I can't say I have detected anything to suggest this. Perhaps it is your sensitivities that are offended more than the actual birds?

 

[payaminotom]

I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that they are unhappy. You are supposing they are unhappy, I can't say I have detected anything to suggest this. Perhaps it is your sensitivities that are offended more than the actual birds?

Fantastic insight there 👏

 

[Jos Stratford]

Fantastic insight there 👏

To the point 👍

We simply see things differently, I see no issue with the collection at Slimbridge, quite the opposite. I don't see any cruelty with the way Slimbridge care for their birds or adverse signs among the birds that say something is amiss with them.